There is nothing in this verse (or any other verse in the entire Bible) that identifies Jesus as "God."

The Word "God" (ELOHIM) is speaking of only one person in Genesis 1:1, not three persons. Trinitarians claim that God's spirit is the third person of their triune God, but ELOHIM in verse 2, even from the trinitarian standpoint, has to refer to one person since the spirit is spoken of in that verse as belonging to ELOHIM.

In Genesis 1:26, the unipersonal God (elohim) speaks to another person who is not himself, saying "Let us..." or "Let's". If I say to a friend, "Let's go to a movie as we had planned," I am not saying that the person I am speaking to is another person of myself.

The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.

For more on this see the following:
"Let us" and Elohim
Who is God Speaking To?

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Genesis 2 deo

The Son of Jehovah

Dedicated to Jesus and His God

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/category/scriptures/genesis/

Genesis 1:26 and Trinitarian Assumptions

Posted on October 18, 2008 | Leave a comment

Genesis 1:26 – God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Many wish to use this scripture as evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament. However, what does one have to do in order to get “trinity” out of this verse? One has to first assume the doctrine of the trinity, and then one would have to assume that “God” here represents one of the assumed persons of the assumed doctrine of the trinity, who is speaking to one or two others who are persons of the assumed doctrine of the trinity.

Some of these same trinitarians also claim that the Hebrew word [ELOHIM] for “God” means the plurality of God as depicted in the assumed trinity. In other words, the word ELOHIM is supposed to mean the three persons of God. Applying this idea to the verse, then:

The three persons of God said, “Let us…”

In this scenario, they would have it that “God” represents all three persons, evidently saying to each other, “Let us..”

Nevertheless, all of this they have to add to and read into what God stated.

In reality, when one says “Let us …” or “Let’s” in normal conversation, one person is speaking who is speaking of himself in connection with others who are with him. If I say to my friend, “Let’s go to the beach,” both of us are included in “Let’s,” but only one is speaking. Thus, if the word ELOHIM signifies three persons, all of who are saying “Let us …,” it would imply the one God represented as three persons is saying to someone else who is not the one God, “Let us …”

Actually, in saying “let us…,” the one true God is speaking to someone who is not Himself, who was there with him at that time. From other scriptures we learn that there was one that the only true God made the world of mankind through. (John 1:3,10) This one was with the only true God before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:1,3,5) This one is identified in Colossians 1:15 as the firstborn creature, the first living creature of God who was brought into being.

But wait, someone might say, if the Jesus was their at the time of the creation of man, then how does this harmonize with Isaiah 44:24, which says that Yahweh was “alone” at the creation of the universe? The truth is that Genesis 1 is not depicting the creation of the universe, but rather of the creation of the heavens [the sky above the planet earth, and things in it] and earth [the land masses, and things in them] as related to the planet earth, which planet already “was” in existence at the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1, that is, the six days of creation. “Earth” does not always mean the planet, as can be seen from Genesis 1:10; likewise “heavens” does not necessarily mean the literal physical stars, etc., nor where God dwells, as can be seen from Genesis 1:8,9, where the same exact Hebrew word is used as in Genesis 1:1. The “beginning” of Genesis 1:1 includes all six days, whereas, before the six days began, the planet earth already was. — Genesis 1:1,2; Exodus 20:11; 30:17.

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Thus, Isaiah 44:24 describes the hurling forth of all the unknown number of stars [big bang], including the sun with its planet earth, throughout the universe, whereas Genesis 1 is describing the creation of things upon the already existing planet. Therefore, it was not necessary for Jesus to have been present at the creation spoken of Isaiah 44:24, but, since all of the world of mankind was made through the pre-human Jesus (John 1:10), and without him not one of these was made (John 1:3), Jesus was indeed present at the creation of Adam and Eve, and further, Jesus was the instrument that Yahweh used in the creation as described in Genesis 1 and 2. “Through him the world was made.” — John 1:10.

The “creation” in Colossians 1:15,16 is speaking of living creation, dominions, powers, both visible and invisible, whether in heaven or earth. In Colossians 1:15, the genitive partitive usage includes Jesus in the creation being spoken of, and yet at the same sets him apart from the rest of the creation, since he is the firstborn, the first to be brought forth, of that creation. Thus, Jesus is the “firstborn creature,” and by means of him the rest of the living creation was made. This does not include the material universe itself, since the material universe is not a sentient power.

It is also quite possible that, like many other times in the Bible, the word “alone” [Hebrew, “bad”, Strong’s #905] in Isaiah 44:24 is being used in relative terms, so that Yahweh was saying that none of the idol gods nor the humans spoken of in the context were with Him.

We might note also that the scriptures speak of the angels [sons of God, figurative stars] as being present at the time spoken of in Genesis 1:26. — Job 38:4-7.

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26,27, or anywhere else in the entire Bible, that says anything at all about three distinct persons in Yahweh, nor that Yahweh was here speaking to Himself. The conclusion for such has to be added to what is said in the scriptures, and read into what is said in the scriptures.

Some related studies and discussions:

John 1 and the Logos (Word) of God
http://reslight.net/john1.html

Colossians 1:16 and the Creator
http://reslight.net/colossians1-16.html

Is Jesus the Creator?
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=167.0

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Yahweh Speaks to His Son – Genesis 1:26
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=105.0

Who is Yahweh (Jehovah) Speaking To?
http://godandson.reslight.net/gen-1-26.html

Genesis 1:26,27 – Trinitarian Assumptions
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=196.0

In the Beginning: Genesis 1:1; John 1:1
http://creation.reslight.net/tb.html

Isaiah 44:24 and the Trinity Doctrine
http://godandson.reslight.net/is-44-24.html

Isaiah 44:24
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/is-44-24/

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Genesis 1:26 - Let Us and Elohim (2-05-17)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/05/gen1-26.html

Genesis 1:26 - Let Us and Elohim

By Ronald R. Day

Genesis 1:26 - God [ELOHIM] said [singular verb], "Let us make [plural] man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Our trinitarian neighbors see this scripture as a reference to their trinitarian dogma. It is claimed that ELOHIM, being plural in form, means that their idea of "Godhead" has three persons, and that the plurality of "let us" means that one person of God is speaking to another person of God, using the plural form "us". Some modalists and oneness believers also cite this scripture as proof of an alleged "plurality" in their Godhead consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Obviously, God here is speaking to someone. Normally, if a person says to his friend, "Let us do this or that according to our plans," we do not think that the person who is speaking is speaking to another person of himself. Likewise, in those instances where God says "let us", "we", etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that Jehovah is speaking to someone else who is not Himself.

The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.

The plurality of ELOHIM means "gods", not "persons" or "attributes"; thus, to apply this word to the Creator in plural terms would mean that Jehovah is gods [plural], not persons in one God. Nevertheless, the word in its meaning contains the attribute of mightiness, but this is one attribute, not attributes (plural).

Nevertheless, the scriptures do not apply ELOHIM to Jehovah with plurality, anymore than Jehovah Himself applies ELOHIM to Moses with plurality. (Exodus 7:1) Indeed, if ELOHIM used of Jehovah means that Jehovah is more than one person, then to be consistent, the one making such a claim should also claim that God made Moses more than one person to Pharaoh. When Jesus quoted Exodus 6:3, as recorded in Matthew 22:32, Jesus did not use a plural form of the word THEOS; he uses the singular form.

In reality, like several other Hebrew words, the plural forms of EL can be used in singular contexts to denote what we in English might call the superior or superlative degree. Regarding this usage in Biblical Hebrew (as well as some other ancient languages), scholars often call this the "plural intensive" usage, where a plural form of a word is used in a singular context and thus the plural form is viewed as singular, but is intensified in meaning (similar to the English superior or superlative degree). In other words, the plural form of a word is treated as though it were singular, but only intensified in meaning. In English we do this by adding "er" or "est" to many words, such as high, higher, highest, or we might add "more" or "most" before words. (However, in English, especially in its archaic forms, the plural is often employed as a plural intensive when addressing majesty, a judge, etc., as in "your Majesty", and "your Honour", instead of "thy Majesty" or "thy honour.") Therefore, in Exodus 7:1, Jehovah stated that He was making Moses, not persons, to Pharaoh, but rather one person of superior might (ELOHIM) to Pharaoh.

The point, however, is that ELOHIM is used of the one Jehovah, the "one God" who is the Creator of His people. Jehovah is not more than one Jehovah, nor more than one god, nor is he more than one person, or individual, nor does a Supreme Being consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "Hear, Israel: Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one." "Hasn't one God created us?" -- Deuteronomy 6:4; Malachi 2:10.

So who was Jehovah speaking to as recorded in Genesis 1:26? Although there are some hints in the Old Testament, we have to look to the New Testament for the answer to this. John 1:1,2 tells us that the one who became flesh was with God in the beginning that is spoken of there. That "beginning" is not the beginning of the entire universe, as many have assumed, but it is the "beginning" of the "world" (Greek, Kosmos) that God created through the one called "the Word." (John 1:10) All in this world was made through the one called "the Word". Not one thing (pertaining to the world that was made through the Word) was made without the Word. (John 1:3) This one titled "the Word" became flesh, and came into the world that was made through him, and that world did not recognize him. (John 1:1,2,10) Jesus identified himself as that one who was with the "only true God" before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:1,3,5) "God", whom the Word was with, refers to the One whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", that is, his God and Father. Jesus was with the only true God, and thus John 1:3,10 is really speaking of Jesus as the one through whom "God" made the world of mankind. Therefore, by comparing spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), we can see that the one whom "the only true God" was addressing in Genesis 1:27 is Jesus.

However, someone may object, doesn’t John 1:1 tell us that, not only was the Word with [or toward, in service of] God, but also that the Word was "God"? Doesn’t this prove the trinitarian idea that God is more than one person? No, it doesn't! It should be obvious, by comparing John 1:1,2 and John 17:1-5, that Jesus was with, or in service of, the only true God. Would John then say that Jesus "was" the only true God whom he was with? John twice states that the Word was with God, thus giving emphasis to this thought. The thought of two persons as the only true God is not inherent in the words of John 1:1,2, but the idea has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what John wrote. One has to imagine and assume that John, in referring to "God" whom the Word was with, does not mean the alleged triune "God", but that it means the first person of the alleged trinity as the Father. We know it is true that "God" whom the Word was with, toward or in service of, is the God and Father of Jesus, because of Jesus’ words as recorded in John 17:1,3,5. However, the part about the Father being a person of a trinity has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, what John wrote in John 1:1,2, and Jesus’ reference to the Father as the "only true God" in John 17:3 has to either be ignored, or in some manner be interpreted (again this is often done by imaginative assumptions being added to and read into what Jesus stated) in order make Jesus’ words still mean that Jesus is a person of the only true God. Likewise, the trinitarian has to imagine, assume, add to, and read into what John said that the Word is the alleged second person of the trinity.

So why would John say that the Word was "God", if we are not to imagine and assume he is a person of the only true God? Is there not only one God? Can Jesus be "God" who is not the only true God? And wouldn’t this mean that there is more than one true God? The answer again lies in comparing spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), not by imagining, adding, and reading into the scripture a lot of assumptions that would make Jesus a person of his God. What is the true scriptural answer to why John would refer to Jesus as God?

It is obvious that John is not referring to Jesus as "God" in the same manner in which he speaks of "God" whom Jesus was with. In other words, it should be obvious that Jesus is not "God" whom he was with, and as mentioned before, John emphasized this by repeating it again in John 1:2. If Jesus is "God" who he was with, or in service of, then Jesus is the Father, since Jesus says that he with his Father, but trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.

The Greek word for God is usually transliterated as THEOS, and forms of this word are used twice in John 1:1. Forms of THEOS, in the New Testament, are used to translate forms of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as EL; it should be apparent that the Hebrew writers of the New Testament were using THEOS in the same manner, and with same meaning, as the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament. In the words recorded at John 10:34,35, was Jesus saying that all the sons of the Most High are persons of the Most High, that they are all the only true God?

See:
Psalm 82:6 – Who Are the Gods?

What many do not realize is that there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (great); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."

If such Hebraic usage is applied to Jesus (who was with the only true God -- John 17:1,3) in John 1:1, we would have "the Word was mighty," and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginations and assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine, or the oneness doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT before the world of mankind was made. Thus, the scriptural conclusion is that it was this "mighty" one that the only true God addressed in Genesis 1:26, using the term "let us."

ELOHIM - Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?

The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"

Written by Others
We do not necessarily agree with all given by the authors whose writings are linked to below.

Early Church's Understanding of Genesis 1:26 - This is evidently written by a trinitarian.

The following represents links to sites that present the idea that God speaks of Himself as "us" -- we do not agree with that, and recommend the above study:

=============
Originally published April 12, 2009; Updated and Republished November 25, 2014; Republished May 17, 2017; November 14, 2016.

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Genesis 1:26 - "Let Us" and the Trinity

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/08/micah-5-2.html

Micah 5:2 - From Everlasting or From Days of Old?

But thou, Bethlehem [01035] Ephratah [0672], [though] thou be little [06810] among the thousands [0505] of Judah [03063], [yet] out of thee shall he come forth [03318] (8799) unto me [that is] to be ruler [04910] (8802) in Israel [03478]; whose goings forth [04163 - descent, ancestry] [have been] from of old [06924], from everlasting [03117] [05769].-- King James Verson w/Strong's #'s

This scripture is often presented as being proof that Jesus is Jehovah God Almighty, since, according to the way it reads in most translations, it appears that Jesus has existed "from everlasting", or "from eternity." However, we reproduce the scripture above with Strong's numbers (representing the Hebrew words involved) in order to demonstrate that the scripture is not saying that Jesus has had an eternal past, but rather that he existed from days of old.

Nevertheless, many translations do not present Micah 5:2 with the idea of an eternity past. For instance, the New International Version renders Micah 5:2 as:

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Notice Strong's #s 3117 & 5769. This combination is two Hebrew words, one referring to days or time [Yowm - Strong's # 3117, although in this verse it is a prepositional masculine plural form, mime] and the other referring to duration [olam - Strong's #5769, in the plural]. Thus, in Micah 5:2, the final phrase rendered as "from everlasting" in the King James Version above are from forms of these two words.

The usage and definition of these words are given at:
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/3117.html
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/5769.html

One can find an analysis and an interlinear of Micah 5:2 at:

https://biblehub.com/text/micah/5-2.htm
https://bibleapps.com/int/micah/5-2.htm

There is a similar statement in Deuteronomy 32:7.

Deuteronomy 32:7
Remember [02142] (8798) the days [03117] of old [05769], consider [0995] (8798) the years [08141] of many [01755] generations [01755]: ask [07592] (8798) thy father [01], and he will shew [05046] (8686) thee; thy elders [02205], and they will tell [0559] (8799) thee. -- KJV w/ Strong's #'s

https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/32-7.htm

https://bibleapps.com/int/deuteronomy/32-7.htm

Again notice Strong's #3117 and #5769. Certainly, Moses was not telling the Israelites to remember eternity, for they were not capable of such.

Some other scriptures that contain some combination of "yowm olam" [in plural forms] are Isaiah 63:9,11; Amos 9:11 and Malachi 3:4. It should be apparent that "days of eternity" is not meant in any of these scriptures. Examining the other place in Micah where this expression is used, we find:

Shepherd your people with your staff, The flock of your heritage, Who dwell by themselves in a forest, In the midst of fertile pasture land, let them feed; In Bashan and Gilead, as in the days [Strong's #3117] of old [Strong's #5769]. -- Micah 7:14

https://biblehub.com/text/micah/7-14.htm

https://bibleapps.com/int/micah/7-14.htm

It is apparent the expression here does not mean days of eternity, not unless one wants to believe that God's people, Israel, has existed from eternity past.

Some other scriptures are similar, although olam and yowm are separated:

Psalm 77:5. "Olam" is rendered "ancient times" here in the KJV

Isaiah 51:9 "Olam" is rendered "old" in the KJV.

Strong's #s 3117 & 5769 are again used to denote, not eternity, but the days of old.

So far we have found absolutely no other text that contains both "yowm" and "olam" with reference to the past that has any meaning of "without a beginning". Thus, the default would be that the phrase does not mean "eternity" or "everlasting" in Micah 5:2, not unless one has a good scriptural reason for making an exception. And, if there is no other verse containing this expression that would carry the thought of eternal past, then Micah 5:2 would appear to stand alone if one were to read eternal past into the expression used there. Nevertheless, the only reason we can think of for reading this as "days of eternity" is on the assumption that Jesus is God Almighty and thus was never created or brought forth. Yet, we have found no place in the scriptures that this expression is used of God, thus the argument that this expression should read "days of eternity" or "from eternity" in Micah 5:2, would be an exception. With this thought in mind, the argument that Micah 5:2 "proves" that Jesus had no beginning is circular. It would assume that Jesus is God, and then based on this assumption, further assume that this expression is speaking of "days of eternity", and thus the assumption is what is actually being offered as proof that Jesus existed for eternity past.

Although in some contexts the Hebrew *olam* evidently means "eternity" or "everlasting", it does not always mean eternal. The usage of the two words together in comparison to where the two words are used elsewhere in Bible gives us reason to believe that here it does not mean eternity.

Indeed, the word *olam*, when used of the past, very seldom actually means eternal. This can be seen by its usage in the following scriptures: Genesis 6:4; Deuteronomy 32:7; 1 Samuel 27:28; Ezra 4:15,19; Job 22:15; Proverbs 22:8; 23:10; Isaiah 51:9; 58:12; 61:4; 63:9,11; Jeremiah 6:16; 18:15; 28:8; Jonah 2:6; Micah 7:14; Malachi 3:4, as well as many others.

Only in reference to Jehovah's existence in the past, does it take on the meaning of eternal past. (Psalm 90:2) "Even then, it still expresses the idea of continued, measurable existence, rather than a state of being independent of time considerations." -- "Lexical Aids to the Old Testament", under #5769, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible

Thus we find that many translations do not render Micah 5:2 with the thought that the Messiah is from eternity past:

But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. -- New Revised Standard Version.

But you, O Bethlehem Eph'rathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. -- Revised Standard Version.

The Lord says, "Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times." --- Today's English Version.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are too small to be among the army groups from Judah, from you will come one who will rule Israel for me. He comes from very old times, from days long ago." -- New Century Version.

You, Bethlehem Ephrathah, are too small to be included among Judah's cities. Yet, from you Israel's future ruler will come for me. His origins go back to the distant past, to days long ago. -- God's Word Translation.

And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity. -- Young's Literal Translation.

Thou, therefore, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall Mine come forth to be ruler in Israel, whose comings forth, have been from of old, from the days of age-past time. -- Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. -- Jewish Publication Society.

Thus, there is nothing in Micah 5:2 that gives evidence that Jesus has an eternal past; indeed, like many other verses in the Bible, the argument becomes circular, in effect saying: because we believe that Jesus is Jehovah, we believe the passage means that Jesus is from eternity past, and therefore this meaning we give the passage because we believe that Jesus is Jehovah proves that Jesus is Jehovah.

However, reading onward to Micah 5:4, we find of Messiah: "Then shall he stand and tend his flock in the strength of Yahweh [Jehovah], In the excellency of the name of Yahweh [Jehovah] his God have they endured, For now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth;" (Rotherham)

Thus Jehovah is called unipersonally "his God". God Almighty does not have a God, thus there no reason from these scriptures to think Jesus is Jehovah, who is spoken of as "his God".

Objection 1

One stated:

Despite the plethora of modern translations, whose manuscripts were not available to the people of God for centuries, and that do not faithfully preserve the Divine Name, Reslight's attempts to mute the witness of the eternity of the Son of God in this verse by appealing to their questionable authority as the right way to translate "yowm olam" are also found wanting. [He appeals to several modern translations that don't use the phrase "from everlasting"]

We are not sure what is meant by "whose manuscripts were not available to the people of God for centuries." As far as we know, all of the translations given use mostly the Masoretic text as a basis of their translation, the same text used by the King James Translators as almost all translations. Nor is it true that all of the translations given "do not faithfully preserve the Divine Name" (See Rotherham and Young), but this is irrelevant. Further, we do not "appeal" to these translations, but they do support the conclusion we have reached concerning the usage of the phrase involved.

We might add the following translations: New Living Translation; The Message translation; The Complete Jewish Bible; Holman Christian Standard Bible; New International Reader's Version; New International Version (UK); Amplified Bible. There are probably more.

Objection 2

The claim is made that there are about 38 times that it is used with the sense "ever, continually, always, and alway."

The writer is evidently speaking of the word "yowm" alone, not the combination of the two words as we have been discussing. This does not contradict what we are saying, nor is there anything in this that would give olam the meaning of eternity in Micah 5:2.

However, the Lexicon at Bible Study Tools gives the following counts for how the word is translated in the King James Version:

day 2008, time 64, chronicles + (01697) 37, daily 44, ever 18, year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8 always 4, whole 4, alway 4, miscellaneous 44

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html

The 18 places where yowm is translated in the KJV as "ever": Genesis 43:9*,32*; Deuteronomy 4:40*; 18:5*; 19:9*; Joshua 4:24*; 1 Samuel 2:32*,35*; 28:2*; 1 Kings 5:1*; 11:39*; 2 Chronicles 10:17*; 2 Chronicles 21:7**; Psalm 23:6*; 37:26*; Jeremiah 31:36*; 32:39*; 35:19*.

We have added asterisks to point out more as will be discussed below. In none of these instances is *yowm* by itself translated as "ever", but there are two words put together, and both words are translated by the one word "ever."

Those instances marked with a single asterisk, two words are translated as "ever." These two words are: kol ("all, as in the whole of what is being spoken of) yowm (day or days), literally, all the days, or as we would be more likely to say: "daily", or continuously. This same expression is so translated as "daily" in Psalm 42:10; 56:2; 72:15; Hosea 12:1. A careful study of these 17 instances of these two words show that they are never used with reference to eternity in the trinitarian sense, that is, "without beginning or end", but they are used only with a starting point although not always with an ending point.

In Psalm 23:6 [double asterick above] yowm is used with another Hebrew word *'orek*, which simply means a length of time.

Young translates it this way:

Only -- goodness and kindness pursue me, All the days of my life, And my dwelling [is] in the house of Jehovah, For a length of days!

While it is possible that this is indeed referring to an eternal future, it certainly does not support the trinitarian concept of eternity meaning without beginning or end, nor does it mean that Micah 5:2 would have to be referring to an eternal past.

We note the the KVJ translates Yowm as "continually" ten times: Genesis 6:5; 1 Samuel 18:29; 2 Samuel 19:13; 2 Chronicles 12:15; Psalm 42:3; 52:1; 140:2; Jeremiah 33:18.

Again, in all of these instances the word "continually" is translated from two words: kol yowm

Again, a carefully study of these texts do not indicate eternity as expressed in the trinitarian thought of without beginning or ending, but rather a continuous duration for a limited time.

Yowm is 4 times translated "always" (Deuteronomy 5:29; 6:24; 14:23; 2 Chronicles 18:7) and 4 times "alway" (Deuteronomy 11:1; 28:33; 1 Kings 11:36; 2 Kings 8:19). Again, in all of these instances it is two words (kol yowm), not one, that are translated as "always" or "alway". These texts do not necessarily use the word in the trinitarian sense of "without beginning or end", but with the thought of continuous duration for a limited time.

Thus a careful examination of the usage of the word *yowm* in these instances do not support the alleged idea that this word means eternity in Micah 5:2.

Objection 3:

It is claimed there is also "qedem," the term that one has claimed that we have used to try to focus on in siderailing the meaning of the verse. While it is acknowledged the qedem is used in a temporal sense, it is claimed that in Deuteronomy 33:27 it is definitely used once in Scripture with the idea of eternity. It is claimed we insist on not making a judgment on the basis of the meaning of the term "olam" alone, and that we require that one define the phrase by using "yowm olam,". But, we are asked, why limit it to that? Why not understand it as "mowtsaah yowm olam?" Further it is claimed that if we find evidence that "yowm olam" only occurs in temporal contexts, then how many of those "yowm olams" are referring to the "mowtsaah" or goings forth of a being who is said to be (lit.) "continually from the days of eternity?"

There is nothing in our presentation that focuses on this word, qedem. Qedem is Strong's #6924, and it is translated in the KJV of Micah 5:2 by the word "old."

Qedem does not mean eternal; the only place it is rendered "eternal" in the KJV is Deuteronomy 33:27, and even there it is rendered so only because it is speaking of God, not because of the word itself. This could have been also rendered just as well as "Ancient God" or God of old. Rotherham translates this verse: "Above, is the God of aforetime, And, beneath, are the Arms of the ages, - So he driveth before thee the foe, And doth say - Destroy!" The Douay-Rheims renders it: "His dwelling is above, and underneath are the everlasting arms: he shall cast out the enemy from before thee, and shall say: Be thou brought to nought."
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https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/qedem.html

We are asked, why limit our examination to the two words as we did, and why not make it: "mowtsaah yowm olam?"

The exact words used in Micah 5:2 as represented in Jay Green's Interlinear are in this order: 4162 6924 3117 5769. These words are represented by Strong as:

4162: muwtsag (mowtsaah) = rendered "whose goings forth" in the KJV

6924: qedem = rendered "have been from of old" in the KJV
3117: yowm = with 5769 rendered "from everlasting" in the KJV
5769: olawm = with 3117 rendered "from everlasting" in the KJV

Thus to extend this beyond the two words considered, one would need to include: "muwtsag qedem yowm olawm"; however, this actually sidetracks attention from the phrase in question, which is only two words. Nevertheless, "mowtsaah" refers to origin, which itself indicates a beginning.
==========
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/mowtsaah.html

Of course, there is nothing in Micah 5:2 that literally speaks of one whose "mowtsaah" or goings forth are said to be (lit.) "continually from days of eternity." By using this expression we would assume that the writer is claiming that "qedem" means "continually", so as to make Micah 5:2 read: "whose goings forth are continually from days of eternity", or something of this nature. Of course, in reality there is nothing in the word "qedem" that has this meaning. This appears to be an attempt to sidetrack the issue, and turn one's attention away from the fact that we have shown that yowm olam does not mean from the days of eternity, as we have demonstrated.

Objection #4

One states that Micah 5:2 strongly suggests that the being spoken of here does not dwell solely in the realm of finiteness.

That the being spoken of does was not dwelling in the finite realm of the earth before being born on earth is not in question. Evidently, the thought is that Jesus was dwelling in a realm where time does not exist, In so, the reality is that the idea that he was dwelling in some realm where time does not exist has to be read into the text. To assume that this is what it means would further bring forth the question: Do the angels who always [in eternity?] behold the face of God in heaven dwell in this same realm, and are thus also eternal beings? (Matthew 18:10) There are some trinitarians who do believe that the angels exist in eternity where supposedly time does not exist, although they seem to be vague about how this is possible. In response to this quandry, one person even went so far as to say that all who will live eternally in the supposed realm where time does not exist actually become one with God in that they become God! So where does all this kind of reasoning lead to? Farther and farther away from the truth!

Objection #5

One claims: If you try to say that Strong’s number: 6924 מִקֶּ֖דֶם, miq·qe·ḏem means something different than “FROM EVERLASTING” about Jesus in Micah 5:2, you MUST say the same about God in Habakkuk 1:12 NWT Are you not FROM EVERLASTING [Strong’s number: 6924 מִקֶּ֖דֶם, miq·qe·ḏem], O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment; My Rock, you established them for punishment.

This is related to word that is rendered "from of old" in the King James Version of Micah 5:2. Evidently, it is being claimed that this word has to mean "everlasting." If so, no, "everlasting" or "eternal" is not inherent in this word. Like Strong's #5769, it can take on the meaning of eternal, forever, etc., but these meanings are not inherent in the word. If one were to force the meaning "eternal", "everlasting", "forever" into this word every time it appears we would have some very weird results.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/qedem.html

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/6924.html

For instance, in Nehemiah 12:46, we find Strong's #6924, where the King James Version renders it as "of old."

For in the days of David and Asaph of old [Strong's #6924] there were chief of the singers, and songs of praise and thanksgiving unto God.

Let us change this to "from everlasting":

For in the days of David and Asaph from everlasting there were chief of the singers, and songs of praise and thanksgiving unto God.

This would make it appear that David and Asaph had been in existence from all eternity past, but it is evident that this is not what is means, nor does it mean such in Micah 5:2, where it is used, not of Jehovah, as in Habakkuk 1:12, but the one whom Jehovah promised, as can be seen from Micah 5:4, where Jehovah is distinguished from being the one spoken of in Micah 5:2.

Related Books and Bible Aids

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Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks to His Son (2010-01-02)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2010/01/genesis-1126.html

Trinity in the Bible?

Is the traditional trinitarian dogma actually found in the Bible? What about all the scriptures that trinitarians use to allegedly support their dogma?

Saturday, January 2, 2010

Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks to His Son

Genesis 1:1- In the beginning GOD created...
Genesis 1:26- Let US make man in OUR image...

For more on this see the following:
"Let us" and Elohim
Who is God Speaking To?at January 02, 2010

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John 1:1 Regarding “Was” and Eternity (moved to Jesus and His God)

This study has been moved to: http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/white.html

John 4:26 - EGO EIMI and Jesus' Claim to be the Messiah

Some trinitarians are using John 4:26 connected with Isaiah 43:10-12 and/or Isaiah 52:6 as proof that Jesus is Jehovah. The assumption is th...
Three-Headed Trinity?

Trinitarians often claim that trinitarians do not believe in a "three-headed trinity". While it may be true that most trinitarians...
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Is Man a Trinity?

1 Thessalonians 5:23, along with Genesis 1:26,27, is often presented by trinitarians as an alleged proof of their trinity dogma. Evidently, ...

Genesis 2 deo

Genesis 1:26 - Let Us and Elohim (2-05-17)

Genesis 1:26 - "Let Us" and the Trinity

Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks to His Son (2010-01-02)

Genesis 1:26,27 - Who Is God speaking to? (2017-05-17)

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Genesis 1:26,27 - Who Is God speaking to? (2017-05-17)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/05/ge1-27.html

Genesis 1:26,27 - Who Is God Speaking To?

God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. -- World English Bible.

Many have claimed that the above scripture is one person of God (Jehovah, Yahweh) speaking to another person of Jehovah. Actually, there is certainly nothing here to give us any reason to think that one person of Jehovah was here speaking to another person of Jehovah. Jehovah was indeed speaking to someone, and other scriptures indicate that this was the pre-human LOGOS, Jesus, who was with the only true God before the world of mankind was made (John 1:1,2; 17:5), and who acted as God's agent in the creation of the world of mankind. (John 1:3,9; Ephesians 3:9) Additionally, there is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in one God, only an indication that Jehovah was speaking to someone who was already in his image and likeness. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

Often many will point to Isaiah 44:24, which speaks of Jehovah's creating the material universe, and claim that this scripture shows that Jehovah was also alone when he created the world of mankind, as recorded in Genesis 1,2. Evidently, Jehovah was alone when he first produced the material universe, but, after that, he most certainly was not alone in the creation of the world of mankind, the heavens and the earth being spoken of in Genesis 1,2.
==========
See our studies related to CREATION.

Others have suggested that God was speaking to the angels here. The angels were certainly present at the creation of man, for they were the sons of God who rejoiced at earth's creation. (Job 38:4-7) God certainly could have been speaking to the angels here, although the Bible does not directly state that the angels participated in the creation.

We certainly find nothing here to indicate that one person of Jehovah is speaking to another person of Jehovah, or that there is more than one person in Jehovah.

Some of our trinitarian neighbors often make the claim that the plural/singular usage of language in Genesis 1:26,27 gives proof of their trinity doctrine. It has been claimed that when God spoke of "us" in creation, that this indicates that Jehovah is Jesus. Trinitarians claim that this means that there are more than one person in the Creator/God. The usage of the Hebrew word elohim, translated as "God" in this verse, is also offered as proof of the trinity, since elohim is plural, not singular. It is also claimed that man -- made in God's image -- is also a trinity, with reference to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Please see our study on 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

The Word ELOHIM

While Jehovah did create by means of his Son, there is nothing in the word elohim as used in Genesis 1:26 that means a plurality of individuals, any more than its use of Moses in Exodus 7:1, where Jehovah states to Moses: "See, I have made thee a god [ELOHIM] to Pharaoh." (Webster translation) Moses is certainly not a plurality of individuals. Thus there is definitely nothing in that word that identifies a plurality of individuals. If used to denote plurality, it means gods, nor a multiple of persons in one god.

The Hebrew Scriptures do often use the plural word Elohim in singular settings, usually with the singular article or singular verbs, etc. This has been called the "plural intensive" -- where the plural is used in a singular context. It has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.

As pointed out, Moses is also called elohim -- plural. (Exodus 7:1) The scriptures concerning Moses indicate that elohim, although plural, is applied to the singular person, Moses (who is a type of Jesus -- Deuteronomy 18:18,19; Acts 3:19-23). Moses is not more than one person, so why the plural usage here? It is plural used in a singular setting to denote supremacy (plural intensive), that is, to denote the supremacy of the power given to Moses by Jehovah over the power of Pharaoh and the gods of Pharaoh.

We should also note that elohim -- when used with a plural application -- means "gods" -- not persons. Thus the argument that its plural usage means a trinity would tend to mean that there are three gods, not three persons in one God, as is claimed for the trinity doctrine. ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is used as the plural intensive, or superlative, of the singular, and refers to one person speaking to another person, saying "Let us..." If ELOHIM is used as a plural in Genesis 1:26, then we would have several Gods saying to another or others: "Let us..." But in reality, ELOHIM refers to one: Jehovah, and then that one is speaking to another or to others.

For more on the usage of the world *elohim*, see our studies related to ELOHIM AND PLURALITY:

Image and Likeness

Someone has argued: "As in "Let US make MAN in our IMAGE and LIKENESS. Now, do tell us how God made man in 'his image and likeness' if God is a spirit? Does a spirit have an image? A likeness?"

This argument would appear to be making God Almighty to be a flesh being like man, who is flesh, earthly. God is spirit in substance, heavenly, not earthly, fleshly. (Psalm 8:5; 1 Corinthians 15:39-41; Hebrews 2:7) To be in God's image and likeness does not mean that if Jehovah is an invisible spirit being that we also must also be invisible spirit beings. Having been created in the image of God certainly does not mean that the first human pair were invisible, which is an attribute of God Almighty. (Colossians 1:15) Likewise, since Jesus' exaltation, we read that he dwells in unapproachable light; whom no human has seen, nor can see. -- 1 Timothy 6:16.

The word "image" is used in different ways in the Bible; Adam was created in God's image; (Genesis 1:26) Does this mean that God has a fleshly body, as man does? Absolutely not!

An image of anything is a representation or copy of it, though of inferior substance. So the first man was an earthly or clay copy of his heavenly, spiritual Maker -- a copy of God! yes, he was to be a manifestation of God in flesh.

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in one God, only an indication that Jehovah was speaking to someone who was already in his image and likeness. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

Man was originally created in the likeness of God, crowned with glory. -- Genesis 1:26; 5:1; Psalm 8:5

Man was created in the mental and moral image and likeness of God, with the ability to reason and to exercise his free will to choose right or wrong. Man exists on a higher plane than the animals and "a little lower than the angels [elohim]." (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) It is difficult to judge from present human conditions all that is meant by God's image, because we have no sample (save that recorded of Jesus) of perfect humanity for comparison. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" in which Adam was created. -- Romans 3:23; Psalm 8:5.

Now we note some other scriptures concerning the likeness of God. David hoped to be raised again in the likeness of God. (Psalm 17:15) The new creature in Christ is in the likeness of God, having been reckoned as justified through faith in the blood of Jesus. -- Ephesians 2:24

However, more specifically the context indicates how man was created in the image and likeness of God: "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." In other words, man was not only made morally and intellectually to resemble his Creator, so that he would be able to think and reason on higher planes than would be possible to the lower animals, but he was also endowed with the authority to control the lower creatures, to be the EL -- powerful ruler -- of earth as Jehovah is the EL of the universe. This agrees well with the statement of Psalm 8:5-8, in which it is declared that God created man but a little lower than the angels, so far as his intelligence and capacity were concerned, and that thus he was "crowned with glory and honor" and given dominion over the lower creatures. It further agrees with Pauls statement in 1 Corinthians 15:39-41. Nevertheless, Paul says concerning this dominion: "But now we don't see all these things subjected to him, yet," indicating what he said elsewhere concerning man's fall from divine likeness, yet with the hope of recovery from this fall. -- Romans 1:21-2:2; 3:10,23; 5: 15-19; 8:19-21; Hebrews 2:7.

And we should note the reading of the following verse, also verse 31, which show that God not only purposed the work and proposed it to his Son, his agent in the creation of all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16), and that he not only began the work, but that he also completed it: -- "So God created man [past tense] in his own image; in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Compare Genesis 1:27,31; 5:1; 9:6; Ecclessiastes 7:29; 1 Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9) And this creature which God "had made," completed, and declared to be a copy, an image of himself, a manifestation of himself in flesh, he was also pleased to own as his son (Luke 3:38), and as Paul says -- "if a son, then an heir;" (Galatians 4:7) for God brings no son into existence for whom he has not made ample provision. Therefore as a son he had the rich token of his Father's loving providence in the vast domain of earth which he was to subdue and take possession of as his posterity would increase and require it; and all its products -- animal, vegetable and mineral -- were subject to his control and use: "And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living animal that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food." -- Genesis 1:28,29

And not only did God thus give to Adam the whole earth as an inheritance for himself and his posterity, telling them to appropriate it and cultivate it as their increasing necessities should require, but he had already prepared a choice portion of it as a fit home for the perfect pair, and a sample of what the whole domain of earth would become under the process of industrious cultivation with his added blessing. -- "And Jehovah God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.... And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." -- Genesis 2:8,15

Thus the context indicates the image of God in Adam, as well as can be seen in Psalm 8:5-8. It is not an image of physical likeness; but to Adam was given the ability to rule, to have a dominion. He had the ability of perception like God; of understanding; as well to reflect all the general attributes and qualities of God on a lesser scale. Man was given perception, imagination, the power of original suggestion, memory, reason, judgment and will, corresponding to these various intellectual qualities in God. He has also the Godlike moral quality of conscience, which enables him to discern the right and the wrong, to distinguish one from the other and to estimate them properly. As originally created, all of these powers worked together perfectly and harmoniously, all being subject to that supreme mental faculty, the will, which, being free to act independently, though aided by the suggestions of all the other mental and moral faculties, determines the course and constitutes the character of the man.

The glory of God-likeness and dominion was to a great extent lost when Adam disobeyed. (Romans 3:23) The apostle tells us that now we do not see all things subjected to man. (Hebrews 2:6-7) Thus the original purpose for mankind has yet to be seen. When Adam sinned, in effect God disowned him as his son, as he no longer reflected the qualities of God.

Therefore we see from the Bible testimony that man was originally perfect, an image or copy of God in flesh. Of the fall from that original perfection and the results to the entire race of Adam, we also have the clear testimony of the Scriptures, showing just how it came about -- that it was a willful transgression of a known righteous law, in the face of a distinct warning of the penalty of such a course. It was a sin on man's part only, and from which God is fully exonerated in that man was left under no necessity of want and with full instruction as to the right course and as to the results of a wrong course of action. The only cause of man's fall, then, which is traceable to the Creator, lies in the fact that he created him in his own image -- with a free will of his own. But this endowment, we see, was the crowning act of God's favor to man, and man's choicest blessing. And so it was the lack of appreciation, and an abuse of God's abounding favor and goodness, and not any lack on God's part, which led to the fall.

As a consequence of that fall from original perfection and favor on the part of the head and representative of the race, another law of our being, designed for our highest good -- the law of heredity -- has brought upon all Adam's posterity its entailment of imperfection and proneness to evil. And thus all the race is in the same wretched plight. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, nor a bitter fountain send forth sweet waters. The present state, therefore, of the entire race is a degenerating and dying one. Had it not been for the redemption through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, the plight of man would have been without remedy.

Ronald R. Day, Sr.

Links for studies related to Genesis 1:26,27:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/genesis.html#gen1-26

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Divine Truth or Human Tradition? A Reconsideration of the Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity in Light of the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures

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Genesis 1:26 and Trinitarian Assumptions

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/18/gen1-26/

Genesis 1:26,27 - Who Is God Speaking To?

Ronald R. Day, Sr.

Links for studies related to Genesis 1:26,27:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/genesis.html#gen1-26

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Divine Truth or Human Tradition? A Reconsideration of the Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity in Light of the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures

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Genesis 12:7 - Jehovah's Appearances in Genesis (2016-12-03)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/gen-appearances.html

Saturday, December 3, 2016

Genesis 12:7 - Jehovah's Appearances in Genesis

All scriptures are quoted from the

American Standard Version of the Bible

unless otherwise stated.

And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto Jehovah, who appeared unto him. - (Genesis 12:7)

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect. - (Genesis 17:1)

And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; - (Genesis 18:1)

And Jehovah appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt. Dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of. - (Genesis 26:2)

And Jehovah appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father. Fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. - (Genesis 26:24)

And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, who appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. - (Genesis 35:1)

And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came from Paddan-aram, and blessed him. - (Genesis 35:9)

Genesis 48:3 - And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

The scriptures above (and a few more) are often presented by trinitarians as proof that their idea of a trinune God is found in the book of Genesis.

Obviously, however, there is nothing in any of these verses about a triune God. Indeed, it is never stated anywhere in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person, What is often imagined, assumed, added, and read into, these scriptures, however, is that the God of Abraham is more than one person, and it is being further imagined and assumed that it is only one of those persons that cannot be seen, and it is thus further being imagined and assumed that the alleged second person of their imagined and assumed triune God can be seen, and thus it is being further imagined and assumed that "Jehovah" in the above scriptures must be the imagined and assumed second person of Jehovah. And thus all of this that is imagined and assumed is added to and read into what is stated.

Actually, no scripture at all identifies Jesus as being any of the angels that appeared to the patriarchs. The idea is added to the Bible to accommodate the trinity preconception. The scriptures do tell us that it was God and Father of Jesus who spoke to and through the prophets of old. -- Hebrews 1:1,2.

The scriptures do not directly tell us HOW God appeared to the patriarchs, nor is it actually necessary that we know how he made each appearance. We do know that no one saw the actual invisible substance of Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus. (Micah 5:4; Ephesians 1:4; Colossians 1:15) By comparing spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing when can draw some reasonable conclusions, at least in a general sense, without setting forth our conclusions in a dogmatic sense.

And he said, Hear now my words: if there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known unto him in a vision, I will speak with him in a dream. - (Numbers 12:6)

Scriptures show that there are three general ways that Jehovah appeared or spoke to his prophets. 1) by means of one or more of His angels (Genesis 16, 18, 19); 2) in a vision (Genesis 15); 3) in a dream. -- Genesis 28:20-19.

When Jehovah appears by mean of one or more of his angels, often the angel, speaking for the one who sent him, may speak as though he himself is Jehovah, and may be addressed as such. Because of this, many have drawn to the conclusion that an angel of Jehovah is Jehovah, or at least one of the alleged persons of Jehovah. One need not draw the conclusion that the angel sent by Jehovah is Jehovah. Similarly, these angels often appeared as men, and the scriptures spoke of them as though they were men. If one insists that their being spoken of as Jehovah means that they are Jehovah, then, if one is consistent, their being referred as men would mean that they are actually men, and if they are actually Jehovah, then, if consistent, it would mean that Jehovah is "man". In reality an angel of Jehovah is sent by Jehovah is not actually Jehovah, nor is he actually a man. Furthermore, the Bible is fully at harmony with itself without creating all that has to be assumed in order to "see" trinity in the Bible.

One objects that when the Bible says that Jehovah appeared to someone, it refers to a Hebrew term that means a visible manifestation, not a feeling, not a dream, not a vision, nor something spiritual, but something objective that could be historically recognized. What is the Hebrew term being referred to? It is forms of the word that Strong gives the number 7200, often transliterated as "raah". What does it mean? The Brown-Driver-Briggs' definition is:

1) to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to see
1a2) to see, perceive
1a3) to see, have vision
1a4) to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
1a5) to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
1a6) to look at, gaze at
1b) (Niphal)

1b1) to appear, present oneself
1b2) to be seen
1b3) to be visible
1c) (Pual) to be seen
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to cause to see, show
1d2) to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
1e) (Hophal)
1e1) to be caused to see, be shown
1e2) to be exhibited to
1f) (Hithpael) to look at each other, face

It is true that the word does not directly convey the idea of seeing by means of a vision, nor seeing by means of a dream. However, it would be incorrect to think that the word is used exclusively as seeing something physically with fleshly eyes. Indeed, in Isaiah 30:10 one would have a difficult time trying not to apply it as meaning seeing a vision. It is often used in the sense of experience or learning to know something. (Genesis 20:10; Deuteronomy 1:19,31; 11:2; 33:9; Job 11:11; Psalm 16:10; 49:10; 89:49; Ecclesiates 5:17; Jeremiah 5:12; 14:13; 20:18; 42:14; Zephaniah 3:16) It is used of "seeing" -- recognizing -- by outward signs. (Genesis 42:21) It is used of spiritually seeing in Deuteronomy 29:3; Isaiah 6:10; 29:18; 42:18. No, there is nothing in the Hebrew term that would forbid its use as discerning or seeing by means of a vision, or through a dream.

By Ronald Day at December 03, 2016

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Labels: Angel of Jehovah, Jesus as "Jehovah", Theophanies

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Genesis 1:26 and Trinitarian Assumptions

Genesis 12:7 - Jehovah's Appearances in Genesis (2016-12-03)

Genesis 16:7-14 Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04) Genesis 22:15-19. Exodus 33:11.

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/angelofjah.html

Angel of Jehovah

(In this study, God's Holy Name is most often rendered as "Jehovah" regardless of how it appears in the translation being quoted)

It is often claimed that there is only one "angel of the Lord" in the Bible and that "angel of the Lord is Jesus as the alleged second person of the Holy Trinity. Strictly speaking, there is no "angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament. The Bible does refer to angels of Jehovah and angels of God, but it never says "angel of the Lord." The extant Greek New Testament manuscripts do several times have the expression that could be rendered as "angel of Lord," but it should be evident that in each instance a form of the Greek word often transliterated as KURIOS (meaning, lord) is used to replace the Holy Name of God. The only angel of Jehovah that is identified by name is Gabriel. -- Luke 1:11,19.

However, we believe that the correct reasoning related any angel of Jehovah is that the angel often speaks for Jehovah, and thus is often referred to and addressed as Jehovah. There is definitely no reason to create all many assumptions that trinitarians present so as to have it appear to be two persons of Jehovah: Jehovah the Father who sent Jehovah the Son as the messenger of Jehovah the Father. It is true that certain scriptures seem to imply that Jehovah was speaking directly to humans, but a comparison of scriptures shows that Jehovah was actually speaking through or by means of his angels. -- Exodus 3:2-4 [see Acts 7:30,35; Galatians 3:19]; Genesis 16:7-11,13; 22:1,11,12,15-18.

If we need to reach a conclusion, we do have to do some reasoning in reference to the scriptures that speak of the "angel of Jehovah", for the Bible gives no direct answer to this, except the statements in Acts 7:30,35 and Galatians 3:19. Trinitarians assume that Jehovah was an angel and yet that the angel was the angel -- messenger "of" Jehovah, sent by Jehovah. Therefore they view the appearances of the angel of Jehovah as so-called theophanies, not just in the sense of divine being making appearances, but in the sense of the Supreme Being allegedly appearing as men. They seem to see no inconsistency in this whatsoever. Indeed, their reasoning is that Jehovah is the angel sent by Jehovah, claiming that Jehovah as the Son was sent by Jehovah as the Father. Sadly, they do not seem to realize that this concept is no where presented in the Bible, and they have create assumptions outside of what is written in order to "see" the concept as being written.

There are trinitarians that claim that there is only one angel of Jehovah, or as many often prefer, "angel of the Lord", whom they claim is the Son of God. We do not actually know that there is only one angel of Jehovah, as both the Hebrew and the Greek are often indefinite, so that it could be rendered "an angel of Jehovah". In Luke 1:11,19,26 an angel of Jehovah is identified as Gabriel. If there is only one "angel of Jehovah", then the angel is thus identified as Gabriel, not Jesus.

As far as Jesus appearing in the Old Testament, it very well could have been that the same chain of communication was employed in the Old Testament days as was employed in Revelation: From Jehovah to the Logos to an angel of Jehovah. (Revelation 1:1; Genesis 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Exodus 3:2-5; 23:20-23; Judges 2:1-4; 6:11,12; 13:3) We can read that Jesus was there with his God and Father before the world of mankind was made, and that it was through the pre-human Jesus, spoken of as the Logos, that the world of mankind was made. -- John 1:1,3,10; 17:5.

Although we do leave open the possibility that Jesus could have made appearances in the OT as an angel of Jehovah, the only angel actually identified by name as an angel of Jehovah is Gabriel. (Luke 1:11,19) Nevertheless, we are not given any hint in the scriptures that any of the scriptures that refer to an "angel of Jehovah" has any reference to Jesus in his pre-human existence, although many Bible Students have stated that such an angel was Jesus in his pre-human existence. Nevertheless, even if this angel was the prehuman Jesus, it does not follow that this means that Jesus is a supposed person of a triune God.

We have mentioned Galatians 3:19. In this scripture, the apostle Paul speaks of "angels" [plural] used in setting up of the law. "Why, then, the law? on account of the transgressions it was added, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made, having been set in order through messengers [angels] in the hand of a mediator." (New American Standard) The word translated "ordain" (Strong's 1299) in the KJV here means: "to arrange, appoint, ordain, prescribe, give order." The mediator referred to is Moses, who thus received the law from God through the angels, who set these laws in order to Moses so that he could write them down.

Another point is that many trinitarians will deny that Jesus was an angel before coming to the earth (in opposing the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel), yet paradoxically want the angel of Jehovah spoken of here to be the prehuman Jesus. Nevertheless, there are some trinitarians who do believe that Jesus is the Michael the archangel, although these claim that Michael was uncreated.

Jesus never made any claims to be Jehovah. He claimed Jehovah as his God and Father, the one who sent him, anointed him, and gave him his authority. The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Jehovah (Yahweh) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jehovah (Yahweh) is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has one who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Jehovah, speaks for Jehovah, represents Jehovah. Jesus is not Jehovah whom he represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

With the above in mind, let us examine the scriptures where it is claimed that Jesus appeared as as the angel of Jehovah, and as supposedly as "Jehovah", in the Old Testament.

Genesis 16:7-14

The angel of [Jehovah] found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 He said, "Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, where did you come from? Where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai." 9 The angel of [Jehovah] said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands." 10 The angel of Yahweh said to her, "I will greatly multiply your seed, that they will not be numbered for multitude." 11 The angel of [Jehovah] said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because {Jehovah] has heard your affliction. 12 He will be like a wild donkey among men. His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He will live opposite all of his brothers." 13 She called the name of [Jehovah] who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees," for she said, "Have I even stayed alive after seeing him?" 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi. Behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. -- World English, "Jehovah" is rendered as "Yahweh" in this translation, but we have altered it to present the Holy Name as "Jehovah".

The first time that the expression, "angel of Jehovah", appears in the Bible is in Genesis 16:7. Indeed, it is the first mention of an "angel" at all in the Bible. The angel speaks to Hagar, who was fleeing from the harsh treatment of Sarai, Abraham's wife. (Genesis 16:6) It is claimed that in these verses, Hagar calls the "angel of Jehovah" by the name "Jehovah", and that therefore the "angel of Jehovah" is the same being as Jehovah. (Genesis 16:13) While we do not believe that any angel of Jehovah is actually Jehovah, at most what is actually written would only lead one to assume such and nothing more, since there is nothing here that links this "angel of Jehovah" to a supposed second person of the trinity. Nevertheless, from this it is evidently thought that Jehovah is more than one person, and that the angel of Jehovah is one of the persons of Jehovah, based on the assumption that the first person of the imagined trinity, the God and Father of Jesus, cannot been seen, while the second person of Jehovah, Jesus, can be seen, etc. All of this, of course, is not found in scripture, it has to be conjured up beyond what is actually stated, added to, and read into what is stated. Of course, it is true that Jesus' God is invisible, and thus cannot be seen by mankind. Any idea, however, that Jehovah had be more than one person because of this has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures.

Without interjecting trinitarian philosophy, however, one should conclude that the "angel of Jehovah" is not Jehovah who is sent the angel. The word angel means "messenger," which means that the messenger is speaking on behalf of someone else who sent him. Thus Jehovah appears, speaks through, and acts through His messenger. In other words, the expression itself tells us that the "angel" or "messenger of Jehovah" is not Jehovah, for Jehovah is the one that sent the messenger, and that thus the messenger speaks the words of Jehovah. Thus logically, we should conclude that the author of Genesis 16:13 actually refers to Jehovah, who was the one who spoke by means of his angel, and not to the angel, the messenger, himself, who was sent by Jehovah. A similar example is where angels are referred to as men. Although they appear as "men," they are not actually men; likewise, they appear on behalf of Jehovah, and thus are addressed as being "Jehovah" or "God," although they are actually not Jehovah or the Supreme Being. Additionally, the author could have been expressing the matter as it appeared to Hagar, who might have thought that the angel of Jehovah was Jehovah himself.

We know that Hagar did not actually see the invisible Jehovah himself, although she evidently thought she had seen Jehovah. No human can see Jehovah's mighty and invisible substance and yet live. Indeed, since he is the "invisible God", any appearance that he makes has to be in by means of some visible representation of Him.

The World English Bible translation, and some others, makes it appear that Hagar thought she had actually seen Jehovah himself, and have made it appear that Hagar was glad that she was still alive, even after having seeing God Almighty. The King James Version translates the related words like this: "Thou God seest (Strong's #7210, yar] me: for she said, Have I also here looked [Strong's #7200, har] after him that seeth [Strong's #7210] me?" This could be read as an acknowledgment by Hagar that although Jehovah had looked after her, and had seen her plight and also seen the future of her descendants, she had failed in looking after Jehovah. "She rebukes her own dullness and acknowledges God's graces, who was present with her everywhere." (Beza, Theodore. "Commentary on Genesis 16". "The 1599 Geneva Study Bible".
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhm/exodus-33.html#ex+33:10.
1600-1645).

What we do not find in Genesis 16:7-14, or anywhere else in the Bible, is the thought that Jehovah is more than one person. What we do not find in Genesis 16:7-14, or anywhere else in the Bible, is the thought that any angel of Jehovah is Jesus, whom Jehovah also sent. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; Matthew 10:40; Mark 9:37; Luke 4:18; 9:48; 10:16; John 3:16,17; 4:34; 5:24,30,36,37; 6:38-40,44,57; 7:16,28,29,33; 8:16,26,29,42; 9:4; 11:42; 12:44,45,49; 13:20; 14:24; 15:21; 16:5; 17:3,8,18,21,23,25; 20:21; Acts 3:13-26; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9,10.

Genesis 18:1,22; 19:1,17,22,23

Genesis 18:1,22; 19:1,17,22,23 are some scriptures that are often presented to supposedly show that the three angels who visited Abraham were in fact the three persons of the alleged trinity of persons in one God. Of course, not one of these scriptures ever speaks of these three angels, also referred to as "men", as three persons of Jehovah, thus such a thought has to be read into what is said. We have discussed these scriptures more fully in the study entitled, "Abraham and the Three Angels", and so will not go into more detail in this study.

Genesis 21:17-20:

Genesis 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad. And the Angel of God called to Hagar from the heavens, and said to her, What [aileth] thee, Hagar? Fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad there, where he is.
Genesis 21:18 Arise, take the lad, and hold him in thy hand; for I will make of him a great nation.
Genesis 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went and filled the flask with water, and gave the lad drink.
Genesis 21:20 And God was with the lad, and he grew; and he dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. -- Darby Translation.

Here many trinitarians call upon the spirit of human imagination so as to assume that the angel (messenger) of God is God Himself; they would further imagine and assume that the angel is their alleged second person of God, and that "God" in the expression "angel of God" refers to one of the alleged "persons" of God. Thus, by reason of their imagination, they would assume that Jesus is the angel of God, and that Jesus is also God. While we highly doubt that any of the angels of God is Jesus, even if it was, all the rest of the assumptions would not follow.

We should note that we believe that the most direct way to view this is that in Genesis 21:17, when the angel speaks to Hagar, he first speaks his own words, but in Genesis 22:18, he related the words of God of whom he is a messenger. Jehovah speaks through, by means of his angels, and thus an angel of God may relay the words of God in the first person. The fact that an angel of God does this does not mean that we need to imagine and assume that any angel who does so is actually the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor does it give any reason to imagine and assume any of these angels are persons of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. The very fact that an angel is called "angel" -- messenger -- signifies that the angel is delivering the words of the One who sent him.

Genesis 22:11-14

Genesis 22:11 The angel of Yahweh called to him out of the sky, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" He said, "Here I am."
Genesis 22:12 He said, "Don't lay your hand on the boy, neither do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Genesis 22:13 Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and saw that behind him was a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering instead of his son.
Genesis 22:14 Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh-jireh. As it is said to this day, "In Yahweh's mountain it will be provided."

Some have claimed that since Abraham called the place "Jehovah-jireh" [Jehovah provides], and since it appears that it was actually the angel that actually provided that ram, that this means that Abraham was actually attributing the name "Jehovah" to the angel of Jehovah, and further it is imagined and assumed that this angel of Jehovah was actually a person of Jehovah, and further imagined and assumed that this person was the Lord Jesus in his prehuman existence. This really reads a lot into the verse that just isn't there. Whether Jehovah directly provided the ram, or whether Jehovah used the angel to provide the ram, this still does not mean that the angel [messenger] of Jehovah was actually Jehovah, as Jehovah often takes the credit for the work done by those whom he sends. (Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.) Nevertheless, we cannot say definitely that Jesus did not appear in the Old Testament as an angel of his god, Jehovah, As stated earlier in this section, an angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament could have been Jesus, but more than like none of these angels were Jesus. The only angel of Jehovah identified by name in the Bible is Gabriel. (Luke 1:11,19) In many of the instances where an angel of Jehovah is spoken of in the Bible in the Old Testament, it could have been Gabriel.

Another claim some make concerning these verses is that Abraham offered the ram up to the angel as a burnt offering, thus proving that the angel of Jehovah was actually Jehovah himself, or as trinitarians claim, a "person" of Jehovah, that is Jesus in his prehuman existence. Again, nothing is said about the ram being offered to the angel, although, acting as Jehovah's representative, it would have been appropriate for the angel to receive the offering on behalf of Jehovah. This still would not make the angel of Jehovah into Jehovah himself.

Genesis 22:15-19.

15 The angel of [Jehovah] called to Abraham a second time out of the sky, 16 and said, "I have sworn by myself, says [Jehovah], because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore. Your seed will possess the gate of his enemies. 18 In your seed will all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice." -- World English.

Another episode that many refer to is in Genesis 31:11,13; 32:1,24,28,30. It is claimed that the angel with whom Jacob wrestled was in reality Jesus, and in turn, it is claimed from this that Jesus is God Almighty. At most one could read into the verses that the angel is God, or a god. There are no scriptures that link the angel with Jesus, although it is possible that it could have been.

Numbers 12:8: Ezekiel 33:11

Some point to Numbers 12:8, which reads: "with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of [Jehovah] shall he see: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?" (World English) It is claimed that this is proof positive that the "angel of Jehovah" is Jehovah. We need to point out that this "proof positive" is based upon the assumption that Jehovah is more than one person, and the assumption that the "angel of Jehovah" is actually Jesus. Also it based on the assumption that "face to face" means that Moses actually looked upon the face of Jehovah, the Almighty Most Powerful Supreme Being of the Universe. Scripturally, we find this idea to be absurd, especially in view of the fact that Jehovah directly told Moses: "You cannot see my face, for man may not see me and live." -- Exodus 33:20.

However, we can let scripture interpret scripture here and come to a conclusion. Let us look at Exodus 33:11: "[Jehovah] spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Here we learn what this term "face to face" is meant to convey: "as a man speaks to his friend." Matthew Henry* states concerning Exodus 33:20: "God talked with Moses (v. 9), spoke to him face to face, as a man speaks to his friend (v. 11), which intimates that God revealed himself to Moses, not only with greater clearness and evidence of divine light than to any other of the prophets, but also with greater expressions of particular kindness and grace. He spoke, not as a prince to a subject, but as a man to his friend, whom he loves, and with whom he takes sweet counsel." -- Henry, Matthew. "Commentary on Exodus 33".

"Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible".
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/exodus/33.html
1706.

Additionally, we can see that this is also confirmed by the statement in Geneva Study Bible notes for Exodus 33:11. There we find:

33:11 And the LORD spake unto Mosesd face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

(d) Most clearly and familiarly of all others, (Numbers 12:7,8; Deuteronomy 34:10)

We definitely find nothing in Numbers 12:8 that would show that Jesus is Jehovah.

It is claimed by some that to call the angel of Jehovah by the name "Jehovah", and to bow down to this angel as though he was Jehovah, is a "clear" violation of the second commandment. If bowing down to angel is to be considered to be a clear violation of the second commandment, then we must assume that many who bowed downed to kings, elders, judges, etc., all through the Old Testament were breaking the second commandment. Of course, this is ridiculous. (See our study: The Worship Due to Jesus) It is true that if one should actually give to the angel the exclusive worship that only belongs to the Most High, that this would be setting such an one up in the station of Jehovah himself, and thus would be a violation of the second commandment.

What we never find any of the scriptures related to any "angel of Jehovah", or anywhere else in the Bible, is that thought that Jesus is Jehovah, or that Jehovah is more than one person. Such ideas have to be imagined beyond what is actually written, and assumptions have to be formulated, added to, and read into, the scriptures so as to make the scriptures conform to what is being imagined.

Related RL Studies

Genesis 19:24 - Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah
John 1:1-3 – The Logos was Theos
Jacob's Prevailing Prayer
The Tetragrammaton in Genesis
Isaiah 63:9,10 – The Messenger of His Presence
Zechariah 3:2 – Does Jehovah Ask Jehovah to Rebuke Satan?

By Ronald Day at December 04, 2016

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Labels: Angel of Jehovah, Jesus as "Jehovah", Jesus' Prehuman Existence, Michael the Archangel

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Genesis 17:1 - Did the Prehuman Jesus Appear to Abraham? (2018-12-21)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2018/12/gen17-1.html

Genesis 17:1 - Did the Prehuman Jesus Appear to Abraham?

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety nine years old, Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him, I am the Almighty God! Walk before me and be perfect; -- Green's Literal.

Many claim that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament who appeared to Abraham, and thus that in Genesis 17:1, it was Jesus as the second person of the alleged Trinity who appeared to Abraham.

In Genesis 17:1, it is obviously the one person who is "God" in Hebrews 1:1 who is appeared to his prophet Abraham.

In Genesis 17:2, Jehovah promises to make a covenant with Abraham. Verse 7 shows that this covenant is made not only with Abraham, but also the "seed" of Abraham. The final application of this is to "Christ", the only descendant of Abraham who actually fully kept the Law Covenant. Jesus proved himself to be that true "seed" of Abraham, as the apostle Paul writes:

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is Christ.

Galatians 3:17 Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. -- World English.

Paul is obviously speaking of the covenant that Jehovah spoke of in Genesis 17. Paul does not identify Jesus as being Jehovah who makes this covenant, but rather as Christ with whom the covenant is made.

If Jesus is Jehovah of Genesis 17:1, this would mean that Jesus made a covenant with himself. Actually, Galatians 3:16,17 proves that Jehovah in Genesis 17:1 is not Jesus, but rather it is the God and Father of Jesus. Jesus also spoke of this covenant with Abraham as a covenant for a kindgom:

Luke 22:29 - And, I, covenant unto you - as my Father hath covenanted unto me - a kingdom. -- Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.

Oddly, most translations do not reveal that Jesus was speaking here of a covenant that his Father made with him. That this is the covenant made with Abraham is confirmed in Galatians 3, and Jesus extended this covenant with his followers, so that "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise." -- Galatians 3:29.

It should be apparent that by the above comparison of spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing (2 Corinthians 2:13) that it was the God and Father of Jesus who appeared to Abraham, who made the covenant with Abraham and with Abraham's seed, which is Christ (and all who belong to Christ).

By Ronald Day at December 21, 2018

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Labels: Jesus is not Jehovah

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Genesis 18

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/search/label/Genesis%2018

Trinity in the Bible?

Is the traditional trinitarian dogma actually found in the Bible? What about all the scriptures that trinitarians use to allegedly support their dogma?

Showing posts with label Genesis 18. Show all posts

Saturday, February 28, 2015

Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham

Several scriptures are being presented in Genesis 18 and 19 that are claimed to present, or being speaking of, the trinity. The first is Genesis 18:1-3:

(1) And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day.[2] And he lifted up his eyes and looked; and, behold, three men were standing by him. And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground.[3] And he said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, I beg You, do not leave from near Your servant. - (Genesis 18:1-3, Green's Literal)

It is claimed that there are three person who appear to Abraham, and that they are identified as being Jehovah (singular).

Jehovah, of course, may make appearances through as many of his angels as he wishes. There is nothing in these verses about Jehovah being three persons in one Supreme Being. The idea that there is something here about a triune God has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumptions have to be formulated beyond what is written, and then those assumption have to added to, and read into, what is stated.

As to statements given in Genesis 18 and 19, I will say that some reasoning is involved if one is to come to some conclusion regarding what is stated. One could simply let the scripture lie without seeking any conclusion, but since some have added their trinitarian dogma into it, it has become somewhat incumbent upon the non-trinitarian to also reach a conclusion regarding these angels. Such reasoning should be harmony with the entire Bible. It still remains that the default reasoning is that Jesus is not Jehovah, as I have shown in the study: Jesus is Not Jehovah (Yahweh).

The context establishes that these "men" were not actually human beings, but angels who spoke the words of Jehovah. Genesis 19:1,15, establishes that these "men" were angels. Genesis 19:13 establishes that they were sent by, and representing, Jehovah. With this established in the context, it should be understood that these men could be spoken of as "Jehovah", with the contextual understanding that they were angels of Jehovah, representing Jehovah.

The next scripture is Genesis 18:22:

And the men faced around from there and went toward Sodom. And Abraham was still standing before Jehovah. - (Genesis 18:22, Green's Literal)

It is claimed the man who remained identifies the first Jehovah, and that the other "theophanies" got on their way to Sodom.

Jehovah, of course, can certainly make an appearance by means of his angel; this does not mean that His angel is actually Jehovah. Nevertheless, the idea that these angels of Jehovah were not actually angels, but Jehovah himself (Jehovah theophanies) has to be imagined beyond what is written, and contrary to what is actually written in Genesis 19:13.

That these angels, messengers, of Jehovah represent Jehovah is more in harmony with the rest of the Bible. However, since angels of Jehovah are referred to as ELOHIM (gods -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), the appearance of an angel in physical form could be referred to as a theophany, although that is not the way the word "theophany" is generally used.

Nothing is said, however, to the effect that any one of these angels was the prehuman Jesus (although it is possible that Jesus could have appeared as such an angel of Jehovah), or that any one of these angels was Jehovah's Holy Spirit. See my study: The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"

Nevertheless, the scriptures show that there is only one Jehovah:

There is only one Jehovah: Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4, American Standard Version.

Along with this is presented Genesis 18:33:

And when Jehovah had left off speaking to Abraham, He was finished. And Abraham returned to his place. - (Genesis 18:33, Green's Literal)

It claimed that here we see Jehovah #1, who was standing before Abraham left and went back to heaven.

While it is reasonable to conclude that this angel of Jehovah returned to heaven, that is not specifically stated. At any rate, an angel of Jehovah is a messenger who relates the words of Jehovah.

Genesis 19:1:

And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth. -- American Standard.

It is claimed that "The other two men who appeared as angels (theophanies) and went to Sodom and later identified themselves too as Jehovah in Gen 19:18.

Genesis 19:1 actually identifies the "men" as "angels". An angel is a messenger, one who delivers a message for another who is not himself. However, it is not clear that Lot himself knew that these men were angels until later.

Related to this however, we should also note:

Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:
Genesis 19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxed great before Jehovah: and Jehovah hath sent us to destroy it.

Here these angels tell us that it was "Jehovah" who had sent them. Of course, one may imagine, assume and add to the scripture that it was the alleged first person of Jehovah who had sent the two alleged two other person of Jehovah, but that is not what is stated.

Genesis 19:18 is given from the JWs' New World Translation as:

Then Lot said to them, "not that, please, Jehovah"

However, let us read it from the American Standard Version:

And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my lord.

I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I rarely ever use their translation.

In Genesis 19:18, however, based on Ginsburg's list in which he claimed the Sopherim changed the Holy Name to a form of adon, the NWT puts "Jehovah" into Genesis 19:18.

As I have shown in my study, "Adonay, The Tetragrammaton, and the Great Isaiah Scroll", some of these places are validated by the Great Isaiah Scroll, but many are not. Thus, it appears that Ginsburg may have been over zealous in his claims. Additionally, he may have been biased by the trinity dogma in some of his claims.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that Lot addressed the angels as "Jehovah", as the NWT would have it. One should note that the original Hebrew -- which has no written vowels -- does not distinguish between the words often transliterated as "Adoni" (my lord) and "Adonai" (my lords, or, when used as plural intensive, superior/supreme lord). In other words, there was actually no written distinction between the plural or singular form of this word.

The vowel points that are now present in the Biblical Hebrew were added by the Masoretes almost 500 years after the first century. The Masoretes have the word in the plural here, which has led many to think Lot was referring to the angels as being Jehovah. There is nothing in the scriptures however that say that the plural form has to only be used as a plural intensive of Jehovah. Just as the plural form of the word transliterated as ELOHIM is used of the sons of the Most High in Psalm 82:6, so the plural form transliterated as ADONAI may be used of the angels.

Since the context indicates that there are two angels, it should be understood that Lot spoke of them in the plural, adonai, "my lords".

Finally, Genesis 19:24 is presented with the claim we see two Jehovahs raining fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven. -- American Standard Version.

Yes, it was Jehovah who made it rain, and the rain came from Jehovah. This is not speaking of two different Jehovahs.

There is only one Jehovah:

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4.

The one Jehovah is shown to be distinct from Jesus in Isaiah 61:1.

Jesus declared the one Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 as being the only true God. -- John 17:1,3.

The default reasoning is still that the Jesus is not Jehovah, the only true God.

Thus seen, none of these scriptures actually present anything about a triune God, or that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person.

See also the following related studies:
Abraham and the Three Angels
Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovahat February 28, 2015

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John 1:1 Regarding “Was” and Eternity (moved to Jesus and His God)

This study has been moved to: http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/white.html

John 4:26 - EGO EIMI and Jesus' Claim to be the Messiah

Some trinitarians are using John 4:26 connected with Isaiah 43:10-12 and/or Isaiah 52:6 as proof that Jesus is Jehovah. The assumption is th...
Three-Headed Trinity?

Trinitarians often claim that trinitarians do not believe in a "three-headed trinity". While it may be true that most trinitarians...
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Is Man a Trinity?

1 Thessalonians 5:23, along with Genesis 1:26,27, is often presented by trinitarians as an alleged proof of their trinity dogma. Evidently, ...

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Genesis 18:1-3 - Abraham and the Three Angels (2016-12-12)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/gen18.html

Genesis 18:1-3 - Abraham and the Three Angels

And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day.[2] And he lifted up his eyes and looked; and, behold, three men were standing by him. And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground.[3] And he said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, I beg You, do not leave from near Your servant. -- Genesis 18:1-3, Green's Literal.

(1) This narrative begins with the statement that Jehovah appeared to Abraham, and then Abraham saw three men, whom he went out to meet. Although it is often assumed that Jehovah made his appearance here as the three "men", such is not clearly stated in the record. It could be that the appearance of Jehovah in verse one is separate from and before Abraham saw the three men. The term "angel" means messenger, as one who delivers messages for someone else. (See Genesis 19:13) We accept the possibility that Jehovah's appearance to Abraham began before he saw the three men approaching, but at the same time admit that the scriptural testimony is not clear enough to come to a definite conclusion. That these three "men" were actually angels whom Jehovah sent can be seen from Genesis 19:1,13; thus the default conclusion is that these three men were not actually Jehovah who sent them. Nevertheless, at the same time, we could grant that Jehovah can appear by any means that he wishes

(2) Regardless, however, angels sent by Jehovah are sometimes addressed as "Jehovah" in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Exodus 3:2,4,14; Judges 6:12, 14; Zechariah 3:1,2) Just as their being called "men" does not mean that they were actually men, so their being referring to as "Jehovah" does not mean the angels themselves were actually Jehovah, but rather that they spoke for him (similar to a manner in which interpreters might speak for another person in a court of law) as they always behold the face of Jehovah, something which man cannot do. (Matthew 18:10; John 1:18; 1 John 4:1) As we have shown, Genesis 19:13 lets us know that these men (angels) were sent by Jehovah.

(3) Nevertheless, it is often claimed that the three angels who appeared to Abraham were actually the three persons of the alleged holy trinity. Some claim that one of the three angels is called Jehovah in Genesis 18:1 and it is further claimed that this angel was actually Jesus -- the second person of the alleged trinity -- in his prehuman existence. Some have noted that the New World Translation has Abraham saying: "Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant." (Genesis 18:3) Thus it has been claimed that in verse three all three angels are addressed by Abraham as Jehovah (Jehovah) in the singular and then in verse four they are addressed in the plural. However, is the New World Translation correct in placing Jehovah in this verse? They do so because this verse is listed as one of the places that the Jewish scribes allegedly replaced Jehovah with Adoni or Adonai. See Appendix 32 of the Companion Bible:
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app32.html

Genesis 18:27 - Does this Speak of Jesus?

Does "Lord" in Genesis 18:27 refer to Jesus?

Above Obtained from:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

In some vague way some trinitarians (and some others) point to Genesis 18:27 as "proof" that Jesus is Jehovah. The claim apparently is that the usage of "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 8:6, and in other scriptures as applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is Jehovah of Genesis 18:26. Many claim that Jesus is "Jehovah" throughout Genesis 17 and 18, but for now we are examining this one verse.

In reality, the usage of Adonai, as often transliterated from the Masoretic text in Genesis 18:27, does not at all offer any proof whatsoever that Jesus' being made "Lord" (Acts 2:36) means that Jesus is Jehovah. It is the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 and Ezekiel 34:20 who anointed and sent Jesus, thus making Jesus to be "Christ" (anointed), and it was the same Lord Jehovah who made Jesus to be both shepherd and prince (hence "Lord"). (Ezekiel 34:23,24) Nothing in this means that Jesus is Jehovah; indeed, if were so, it would mean that the Lord Jehovah at some point and time made his Son to be the Lord Jehovah.

Genesis 18:27 is one of the scriptures that Ginsburg lists in which it is claimed that God's Holy Name originally appeared but was changed by copyists to Adonai (transliterated). See our study: Adonay, The Tetragrammaton, and the Great Isaiah Scroll. As pointed out in that study, Ginsburg's conclusions are not always correct. If, however, Gingsburg is correct regarding Genesis 18:27, then Abraham did not use a form of the word transliterated as ADON at all in Genesis 18:27.

Assuming that Abraham did call Jehovah ADNI (transliterated) in Genesis 18:27, it would simply mean "my Lord". Some put "ha adonai" -- the Lord -- into this at Genesis 18:27, although the definite article "ha" does not appear before ADNI of Genesis 18:27. At most, one could claim that Abraham was referring to Jehovah as "my Supreme Lord", assuming that the Masoretes are correct in adding the vowel point to form ADONAI in Genesis 18:27. This, of course, would not mean that any verse in the New Testament in which Jesus is referred to as "Lord" (KURIOs) would mean that Jesus is Jehovah. Any application of "KURIOS" to Jesus in the New Testament does not mean that Jesus is the Lord Jehovah.

There is definitely nothing in Genesis 18:27 (or anywhere else in the Bible) about a triune God, or that Jehovah is more than one person. One still has to imagine, assume such, and then add what is being assumed to the scripture in order read such an idea into the scripture.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as being one person, and separate and distinct from Jesus. Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the only true Supreme Being who sent Jesus; Jesus speaks the words given to him from the only true Supreme Being. — Exodus 3:13,14; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 3:34; 5:19; 6:29; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,42; 10:36; 12:44-50; 14:10,24; 17:1,3,8; Acts 3:13-26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 John 4:9,10.

The default reasoning is that Jesus is not the only true Supreme Being who sent Jesus.

Other related studies:

Abraham and the Three Angels
One God, One Lord

Studies that have the word KURIOS on this site

Studies that have the word KURIOS on the Holy Name site

By Ronald Day at November 15, 2016

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Labels: Jesus as "Jehovah", Jesus as Lord

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Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham (2015-02-28)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2015/02/genesis-18.html

Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham

Several scriptures are being presented in Genesis 18 and 19 that are claimed to present, or being speaking of, the trinity. The first is Genesis 18:1-3:

(1) And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day.[2] And he lifted up his eyes and looked; and, behold, three men were standing by him. And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground.[3] And he said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, I beg You, do not leave from near Your servant. - (Genesis 18:1-3, Green's Literal)

And the men faced around from there and went toward Sodom. And Abraham was still standing before Jehovah. - (Genesis 18:22, Green's Literal)

There is only one Jehovah: Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4, American Standard Version.

Along with this is presented Genesis 18:33:

And when Jehovah had left off speaking to Abraham, He was finished. And Abraham returned to his place. - (Genesis 18:33, Green's Literal)

And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth. -- American Standard.

Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:
Genesis 19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxed great before Jehovah: and Jehovah hath sent us to destroy it.

Then Lot said to them, "not that, please, Jehovah"

However, let us read it from the American Standard Version:

And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my lord.

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven. -- American Standard Version.

Yes, it was Jehovah who made it rain, and the rain came from Jehovah. This is not speaking of two different Jehovahs.

There is only one Jehovah:

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4.

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John 1:1 Regarding “Was” and Eternity (moved to Jesus and His God)

This study has been moved to: http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/white.html

John 4:26 - EGO EIMI and Jesus' Claim to be the Messiah

Some trinitarians are using John 4:26 connected with Isaiah 43:10-12 and/or Isaiah 52:6 as proof that Jesus is Jehovah. The assumption is th...
Three-Headed Trinity?

Trinitarians often claim that trinitarians do not believe in a "three-headed trinity". While it may be true that most trinitarians...
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Is Man a Trinity?

1 Thessalonians 5:23, along with Genesis 1:26,27, is often presented by trinitarians as an alleged proof of their trinity dogma. Evidently, ...

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Genesis 19

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Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham

Several scriptures are being presented in Genesis 18 and 19 that are claimed to present, or being speaking of, the trinity. The first is Genesis 18:1-3:

(1) And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day.[2] And he lifted up his eyes and looked; and, behold, three men were standing by him. And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground.[3] And he said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, I beg You, do not leave from near Your servant. - (Genesis 18:1-3, Green's Literal)

And the men faced around from there and went toward Sodom. And Abraham was still standing before Jehovah. - (Genesis 18:22, Green's Literal)

There is only one Jehovah: Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4, American Standard Version.

Along with this is presented Genesis 18:33:

And when Jehovah had left off speaking to Abraham, He was finished. And Abraham returned to his place. - (Genesis 18:33, Green's Literal)

And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth. -- American Standard.

Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:
Genesis 19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxed great before Jehovah: and Jehovah hath sent us to destroy it.

Then Lot said to them, "not that, please, Jehovah"

However, let us read it from the American Standard Version:

And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my lord.

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven. -- American Standard Version.

Yes, it was Jehovah who made it rain, and the rain came from Jehovah. This is not speaking of two different Jehovahs.

There is only one Jehovah:

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4.

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Genesis 19:24 - Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah (2017-04-13)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/gen19-24.html

Genesis 19:24 - Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah

And Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Jehovah out of the heavens.
-- Genesis 19:24, Green's Literal Translation

Genesis 19:24 is often cited as proof that Jehovah is more than one person. The claim by some trinitarians appears to be that there is one Jehovah on earth who is supposed to be the prehuman Son of God, and another in heaven, the Father. While Jehovah is used twice here, one would have to read into this that there are two persons who are being spoken of. Some claim that Jehovah called upon Jehovah to rain fire from heaven. Actually there is nothing at all in the verse about Jehovah "calling upon" Jehovah.

There is nothing in Genesis 19:24 about two persons; one person in heaven and one person on earth, nor is there anything at all here about a supposed plurality of persons in God. Nothing is said anywhere in the Bible that suggests that Jesus was Jehovah on earth while the Father of Jesus was Jehovah in heaven. Such ideas would have to be read into what is said.

Several trinitarian authors proclaim that there are "two Jehovahs" or "two Yahwehs" spoken of here: One Jehovah on earth and another in heaven. If you wish to read into this that there are two Jehovahs here, then you would have two Jehovahs, not one Jehovah as Jehovah declares himself to be. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Nor would such an application call for two persons in one Jehovah, for you would still have two different Jehovahs. There is nothing at all in the verse that indicates that the author had any thought that Jehovah is two different persons.

Actually all it is saying, in Hebraic prose, is that the one Jehovah rained fire and sulphur out of the sky from this same Jehovah. It is a manner of speech that can be found several times in the Old Testament.

Similarly we read:

Genesis 37:28 - Then there passed by Midianites, merchants; and they drew and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty [pieces] of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Three Josephs? No, just the same Joseph mentioned three times.

A further example of this usage:

"...when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin... to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon." (1 Kings 12:21)

Is it speaking of two Rehoboams? No, Rehoboam assembled the tribes to bring the tribes back to himself.

Another example is Genesis 4:23:

Lamech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice, You wives of Lamech, listen to my speech, For I have slain a man for wounding me, A young man for bruising me."

Lamech is not speaking of another Lamech when he refers to his wives as the "wives of Lamech".

David also said something similar as recorded at 1 Kings 1:33:

The king said to them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride on my own mule, and bring him down to Gihon:

David refers to himself in the third person as "your lord" when he said "servants of your lord". He did not say "my servants". He is not saying that there are two Davids, nor is he saying that there is another person in David.

Similar usages are seen in Genesis 17:23 (two Abrahams), Genesis 18:19 (Jehovah used twice, where a pronoun could have been used); Exodus 24:1 (Jehovah used as idiom for "me"), and 1 Kings 8:1 (two Solomons), Ezekiel 11:24 (two Spirits), Zechariah 10:12 (two Jehovahs).

Regarding Genesis 19:24, Charles John Ellicott states:

Many commentators, following the Council of Sirmium, see in this repetition of the name of Jehovah an indication of the Holy Trinity, as though God the Son rained down fire from God the Father. More correctly Calvin takes it as an emphatic reiteration of its being Jehovah’s act. Jehovah had mysteriously manifested Himself upon earth by the visit of the three angels to Abraham, but His activity on earth is one with His willing in heaven.

It should be apparent that there is nothing in the terminology used in Genesis 19:24 that would lead one to believe two persons are being spoken of.

Addendum One

One objects that this cannot be a mention of the same "Jehovah" twice because Moses is contrasting heaven and earth in what is said. This seems to assume several things: (1) That Moses was the original author of this (see our study: The Tetragrammaton in Genesis); (2) that the author made a deliberate differentiation from earth and heaven (sky); (3) that this distinction is for some specific purpose other than just saying the the fire rained from the sky upon the earth; (4) and that this differentiation has some significance in proving that there are two persons being spoken of.

Actually, the verse does not even mention the earth, although it is evident that Jehovah did rain sulfur and fire from the sky on Sodom and on Gomorrah which are both on the earth. The actual contrast then, is not the earth and the sky, but rather the cities of "Sodom and Gomorrah" and the sky. The sulfur and fire rained from the sky on those two cities. It says nothing about one Jehovah on the earth, or in Sodom and Gomorrah, and another Jehovah in the sky -- such ideas would have to be assumed and read into what is being said.

Addendum Two

One author states that there are no passages like this one in the Torah where the same name is mentioned twice in the same verse for emphasis, and that there is no evidence that Moses ever used that kind of literary style.

Again, the author referred to above assumes that Moses was the original author of Genesis 19:24. -- See our study: The Tetragrammaton in Genesis.

We have already shown several examples, in the book of Genesis, of a name being repeated, or of the name being used where we would normally expect a pronoun, such as Genesis 4:23; 17:23; 18:10; 37:28. We also have examples in Exodus 3:12; 24:1; Numbers 19:1-2. So, in reality, there are some examples in the Torah of such usage. Further examples outside the Torah, but in the Old Testament, are: 1 Kings 1:33; 8:4; 12:21; Ezekiel 11:24; Zechariah 1:17; 10:12.

There is also the argument that the first "Jehovah" refers to one of the angels of Jehovah that spoke for Jehovah, and was addressed as "Jehovah", similar to the way an interpreter in a court may be addressed by the name of the person for whom he is interpreting. An angel of Jehovah, who is not actually Jehovah, did often speak for, act for, and was spoken of, as though he was Jehovah, and this could be case also in what is recorded in Genesis 19:24. Thus, when addressed as "Jehovah" it was left understood that it was actually the "angel of Jehovah" who was being spoken to directly. This does not mean that every "angel of Jehovah" who is spoken of as "Jehovah" is to be imagined to be a person of Jehovah. Nevertheless, the first reference to "Jehovah" could be referring to one of the angels of Jehovah while the second reference to "Jehovah" could be referring to the only Most High Jehovah in the heavens. See our study on:
The Angel of Jehovah

Last update of this study: May 6, 2004; January 9, 2010; March 28,2014; January 14, 2015

Genesis 34:7 – The Firstborn Nation, Israel - c

In an effort to thwart the meaning of firstborn, someone states that the people of Israel existed before they were God’s firstborn. (Genesis 34:7) This is thought to offer proof that the word “firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 does not mean one brought forth into existence, but that it simply designates Jesus as being preeminent.

Actually Genesis 34:7 does not prove such, because the land of Israel came into existence as a result of the covenant made with Abraham. (Genesis 26:3; 28:4,13; 35:12; Deuteronomy 34:4; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; Acts 3:25; Romans 9:4) Israel was already considered Jehovah’s son called called out of Egypt, before the law covenant was given. (Exodus 4:22; Hosea 11:1) Regardless, however, Israel was still the first born as a people to Jehovah and they did have a beginning as a nation. Jehovah never recognized any of the nations before as his own. — Amos 3:1,2; Deuteronomy 7:6; 10:15; Psalm 147:19,20.

Throughout the scriptures, however, anyone designated as firstborn is always included in the group of which that one is designated firstborn. In Colossians 1:15, Jesus is included in the group of creation, and is thus the firstborn creature.

Related Studies

Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14, and Jesus' Beginning

Colossians 1:15 – Did Jesus Have a Beginning?

Psalm 89:27 – Jehovah’s Firstborn King

By Ronald Day at January 12, 2019

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Labels: Firstborn Creature

Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham (2015-02-28)

Genesis 19

Genesis 19:24 - Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah (2017-04-13)

Genesis 22:15-19. Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04) Genesis 16:7-14 Exodus 33:11.

Genesis 34:7 – The Firstborn Nation, Israel - c (2019-01-12)

Exodus 20:2,3 - Who Wrote This?

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Exodus 20:2,3 - Who Wrote This?

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2019/10/ex20-2.html

Exodus 20:2,3 - Who Wrote This?

The claim is made that the Law given to Moses was that which the Lord JESUS CHRIST wrote with HIS own finger saying: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2,3

Actually, there is no form of the Hebrew words for "Lord" in Exodus 20:2,3. Many translations falsely present the Holy Name as being "the LORD," but that is not correct.

See:
The Holy Name of God

Exodus 20:2-3 - I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.[3] You shall not have any other gods before Me. -- Green's Literal.

Evidently, the thought is that "Jehovah" who spoke through the prophet Moses is the Lord Jesus Christ. If so, this would mean the Lord Jesus Christ is He who spoke through the prophet Moses. and is thus the one person who is God in Hebrews 1:1, and that the Lord Jesus Christ now speaks through the son of the Lord Jesus Christ, as spoken of in Hebrews 1:2.

Actually, He who spoke through the prophet Moses is the same one person who is the "one God" in 1 Corinthians 8:6, and the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of that one person. Jehovah, the "one God" of 1 Corinthians 8:6 now speaks through Jehovah's Son, and Jehovah's Son is not Jehovah, but the Lord Jesus Christ, the one whom Jehovah has anointed and made "Lord". -- Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36.

By Ronald Day at October 10, 2019

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Labels: Jesus is not Jehovah

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Exodus 33:11. Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04) Genesis 16:7-14 Genesis 22:15-19.

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/angelofjah.html

Angel of Jehovah

(In this study, God's Holy Name is most often rendered as "Jehovah" regardless of how it appears in the translation being quoted)

With the above in mind, let us examine the scriptures where it is claimed that Jesus appeared as as the angel of Jehovah, and as supposedly as "Jehovah", in the Old Testament.

Genesis 16:7-14

The angel of [Jehovah] found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 He said, "Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, where did you come from? Where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai." 9 The angel of [Jehovah] said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands." 10 The angel of Yahweh said to her, "I will greatly multiply your seed, that they will not be numbered for multitude." 11 The angel of [Jehovah] said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because {Jehovah] has heard your affliction. 12 He will be like a wild donkey among men. His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He will live opposite all of his brothers." 13 She called the name of [Jehovah] who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees," for she said, "Have I even stayed alive after seeing him?" 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi. Behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. -- World English, "Jehovah" is rendered as "Yahweh" in this translation, but we have altered it to present the Holy Name as "Jehovah".

Genesis 21:17-20:

Genesis 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad. And the Angel of God called to Hagar from the heavens, and said to her, What [aileth] thee, Hagar? Fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad there, where he is.
Genesis 21:18 Arise, take the lad, and hold him in thy hand; for I will make of him a great nation.
Genesis 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went and filled the flask with water, and gave the lad drink.
Genesis 21:20 And God was with the lad, and he grew; and he dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. -- Darby Translation.

Genesis 22:11-14

Genesis 22:11 The angel of Yahweh called to him out of the sky, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" He said, "Here I am."
Genesis 22:12 He said, "Don't lay your hand on the boy, neither do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Genesis 22:13 Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and saw that behind him was a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering instead of his son.
Genesis 22:14 Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh-jireh. As it is said to this day, "In Yahweh's mountain it will be provided."

Genesis 22:15-19.

15 The angel of [Jehovah] called to Abraham a second time out of the sky, 16 and said, "I have sworn by myself, says [Jehovah], because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore. Your seed will possess the gate of his enemies. 18 In your seed will all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice." -- World English.

Here the angel of Jehovah quotes Jehovah, thus this should show that the angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah. It certainly does not call for use of extra-Biblical imagination so as to assume that Jehovah is more than one person, and that the angel is one of the persons of Jehovah, etc. Without injecting trinitarian assumption into what is said, the logical conclusion is that the angel speaks and acts on behalf on the one whom he represents.

Genesis 31:11,13; 32:1,24,28,30
Another episode that many refer to is in Genesis 31:11,13; 32:1,24,28,30. It is claimed that the angel with whom Jacob wrestled was in reality Jesus, and in turn, it is claimed from this that Jesus is God Almighty. At most one could read into the verses that the angel is God, or a god. There are no scriptures that link the angel with Jesus, although it is possible that it could have been.

Numbers 12:8: Ezekiel 33:11
Some point to Numbers 12:8, which reads: "with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of [Jehovah] shall he see: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?" (World English) It is claimed that this is proof positive that the "angel of Jehovah" is Jehovah. We need to point out that this "proof positive" is based upon the assumption that Jehovah is more than one person, and the assumption that the "angel of Jehovah" is actually Jesus. Also it based on the assumption that "face to face" means that Moses actually looked upon the face of Jehovah, the Almighty Most Powerful Supreme Being of the Universe. Scripturally, we find this idea to be absurd, especially in view of the fact that Jehovah directly told Moses: "You cannot see my face, for man may not see me and live." -- Exodus 33:20.

"Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible".
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/exodus/33.html
1706.

Additionally, we can see that this is also confirmed by the statement in Geneva Study Bible notes for Exodus 33:11. There we find:

(d) Most clearly and familiarly of all others, (Numbers 12:7,8; Deuteronomy 34:10)

We definitely find nothing in Numbers 12:8 that would show that Jesus is Jehovah.

Related RL Studies

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Numbers 12:8 Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/angelofjah.html

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Deuteronomy 6:4 - The Meaning of Echad (2016-11-29)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/11/echad.html

Deuteronomy 6:4 - The Meaning of Echad

Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. - (Deuteronomy 6:4, Green's Literal Translation)
Hebrew and Greek words are transliterated throughout.

The claim is often made that the Hebrew word translated "one" [echad] means "composite unity", and therefore this shows that Jehovah consists of more than one person, and thus it is claimed that the usage of echad in Deuteronomy 6:4 offers proof of the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It is true that "one" can mean "composite unity", or "compound unity", whether in Hebrew or English. There is no evidence, however, that the Hebrew word echad means anything different from the English word "one". There is nothing mystical about the Hebrew word "one" as used in Deuteronomy 6:4 that would mean that Jehovah is more than one person.

Echad [Strong's #259 "united, i.e., one; or (as an ordinal) first"] simply means one [whether composite or absolute] just the same as our English word means one. Look at its usage in a Hebrew concordance: "one door" Ezekiel 41:11); "one reed" (Ezekiel 40:5-8); "one gate" (Ezekiel 48:31); "one saint" (Daniel 8:13) -- just a few examples. (See also Numbers 7:11,13,14,26,32,38,44; 9:14; 16:22, for a start) It is used exactly the same as our English word "one". Being a single individual, object, or unit. noun: A single unit, a single person or thing.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/echad.html

The English word "unit" is defined as:

a : a single thing, person, or group that is a constituent of a whole
b : a part of a military establishment that has a prescribed organization (as of personnel and materiel)
c : a piece or complex of apparatus serving to perform one particular function
d : a part of a school course focusing on a central theme
e : a local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses

-- Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
https://www.yourdictionary.com/

The word composite means "made up of distinct parts." A composite unity, therefore, consists of various parts, each in itself making up a part of one total. The separate parts do not equal the total, and do not necessarily equal each other, as is claimed for the trinity. One part is not the other part. One grape on a cluster is a part of the cluster, but it would not be proper to say that the one grape is the cluster. This is true in both Hebrew and English. The scripture referred to says that there is only one Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 6:4) It is this one Jehovah who speaks to Jesus in Psalm 110:1 -- two separate beings. Jehovah is not presented as being more than one person, nor is Jesus presented as being Jehovah.

Sometimes we read of some who say that echad means "compound unity". The word "compound" means to put parts together to form a whole; to form by combining parts, etc. Thus this word means practically the same as "composite."

Jehovah is different from the false deities of the heathen, which were often worshiped as triads consisting of three parts. Jehovah is one Jehovah -- not two, not three.

Jay Green's interlinear says: "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God (is) Jehovah one." His translation reads: "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Echad is used here as an adjective modifying Jehovah. It really shows that there is but one Jehovah, not two - not three. However, in the context, Jehovah is warning about Israel's worship of the idol-gods of the nations. (Deuteronomy 6:12-15)He certatinly foreknew that Israel would get involved in such idolatry and would even use His Holy Name in worship of those idols. Thus, it was important to note that Jehovah is not more than one Jehovah; there are not a multiplicity of Jehovahs being represented as is found in the heathen lands around Israel. Also, some of the heathen have used forms of the name Jehovah (Yahweh) in their worship; without a covenant, however, Jehovah is not their God, except in the broad sense that Jehovah is the God of all his creation, in which case He is still but that one Jehovah, but he is not represented by any idol even if the heathen may have used a form of His name as applied to an idol.

While it is true that the word "one", whether in English or "echad" in Hebrew, can mean a composite/compound unity, and "one" can have more than one part, as in one cluster of grapes (Numbers 13:23), each grape is a part of the cluster, not the whole. Grape one does not equal the cluster, grape two does not equal the cluster, etc., each grape is only a part of the whole. One people (Genesis 34:16) does not mean one person is wholly the people as is claimed in the trinitarian dogma, that each of the alleged persons are "wholly" God -- not a part of God.

Likewise, your body is made up many parts, all of which go to make up the composite whole. Your arm is not your whole body, nor is your leg, etc., but only a part.

If this idea of composite unity is applied to the idea that God is more than one person, then you would have the Father as a part of God, but not all of God; you would have the Son as a part of God, but not all of God; and the Holy Spirit as a part of God, but not all of God. Thus allowing that all three persons are equal, we would have 1/3 of God as the Father, 1/3 of God as the Son and 1/3 of God as the Holy Spirit. Yet the trinitarian dogma does not define the trinitarian godhead as such, for they claim that Jesus is "fully God." They do not claim that the Father is part of God, they claim that he is fully God, etc. Therefore, their usage of "composite unity" or "compound unity" as a means to see the trinity in the word "echad" does not, in reality, exist, except that they should create their own definitions to suit their trinitarian dogma.

Is Jehovah a Unity? We can say that Jehovah is love; but Jehovah is not "all" love and nothing else. "Love" is not equal to the whole of who Jehovah is. It is only one component of who Jehovah is. The many components of Jehovah's being, personality and character are discussed in Paul S. L. Johnson's Book entitled *GOD*, which can be ordered from the Bible Standard.

Additionally, did the Hebrew writers themselves consider the usage of echad to mean more than one person in one God? There is not one hint that they believed such. It is only by adding the trinitarian philosophy and then reading the trinitarian philosophy into the expressions used that one can find "trinity" in the verse.

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh.

The argument is often put forth that Genesis 2:24 illustrates that echad means more than one person in unity. Of course, we allow that echad can mean more than one person in unity, but this does not mean that the persons involved are the same being, sharing the same sentiency as is claimed for the trinity dogma: three persons in one omniscient being. The unity involved in marriage, if divided equally, still would be 1/2 + 1/2 = the whole. The marriage still consists to two separate parts that equal the whole. The same holds true for the many other "illustrations" of composite unity that our trinitarians neighbors come up with. We do not deny that echad means composite unity when that term is used properly; the meaning of composite unity, however, does not describe the dogmatic definition given of the trinity.

A married couple do not literally become one fleshly being. The man, after marriage, still has his own sentiency, his own thoughts and his own self, and a woman after marriage still has her own sentiency, her own thoughts, and her own self. The marriage union does not make the two one sentiency as is claimed for each of the members of the alleged triune God, that is, they are all three claimed to be omniscient.

Some claim that they the expression "one flesh" means that the two are the same substance, as is claimed for the trinity. The problem is that a man and woman are both of the same substance before they get married, thus their becoming "one flesh" does not mean that they become of the same substance when they are joined together in marriage. Obviously, the expression "one flesh" in Genesis 2:24 does not mean the same thing that "one substance" is claimed for the trinity, for the trinity claims that all three persons of the alleged trinity are all omniscient, thus all one sentient being, since all three, being omniscient, would have all have the same sentiency. Nor does the idea of "one flesh" in the marriage union mean that they both, as a result to the marriage, then became the same flesh substance (or "nature" as trinitarians often express it), as some have argued, since the man and woman already are of the same fleshly substance before marriage. Thus all mankind is spoken of as "one flesh", in the sense of actual substance, but all mankind do not constitute one sentient being. -- 1 Corinthians 15:39.

Nor is it that the two who become married are one sentient being, and no longer two sentient beings, for then there would be no such thing as a married "couple". Nor do either one of the two equal the whole of the union, as is claimed for each person of the alleged trinity, in that is claimed that each person of the trinity is wholly God, not part of God. The man and woman who come together are still each only part of that union; neither is equal the whole union.

Strictly speaking, the "one flesh" that is being spoken of is in the marriage union, in which the two come together in marriage bed as though one body. That this is what is being spoken of can be seen by 1 Corinthians 15:39, where Paul refers to this scripture in describing fornication with a prostitute. In the case of such fornication, the man and woman usually do not remain together as in marriage, but they do become as one body during the act of fornication. For such a union to take place, however, there have to be the two who are already flesh before they unite with each, neither of which are equal the whole.

Of course, we can also see that the marriage union as a whole could also be included. But still, neither party is equal to and wholly the union, but each remain a "part" of the union. The trinitarian dogma claims that the Father is not "part" of God, but all of God, the Son is not "part" of God, but all of God, and that the holy spirit is not "part" of God, but all of God.

Furthermore, The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) states: "Adam and Eve are described as "one flesh"(Genesis 2:24), which includes more than sexual unity" but when we use 1 Corinthians 6:16 as a cross reference, it appears that it means exactly sexual unity causing them to be "one flesh."

Therefore, is the "one flesh" union of Genesis 2:24 a composite unity? Absolutely! Does it offer any illustration that would apply to the trinity? No.

Additionally, composite unity does not mean that the various parts of the unity are neccessarily equal to each other, for in the husband-wife relationship a man is not equal in all respects to the woman, nor is the woman equal in all respects to the man, etc. Additionally, in a cluster of grapes, one grape may be bigger than another, but then a cluster of grapes includes not only the grapes but the stems that link the whole the cluster together. The stem is not equal to the grape, nor the grape to the stem. So none of these provide any illustration of the trinity.

Echad corresponds with the Greek heis -- one. It is simply the common Hebrew word for "one".

"He is unique... He is not many, but one... Yahweh is a single unified person... one Lord is also opposite to diffuse... He is single... God's person and his will are single... Israel is called to concentrate it's undivided attention in Yahweh himself. He alone is worthy of full devotion and He is one-single and unique." -- The Broadman Bible Commentary

Another word related to echad is Yachiyd (Strong's #3173). This word corresponds with our English word "only". It is most commonly used in the expression "only son". (Genesis 22:2,12,16; Judges 11:34; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) Like Echad, it is also closely associated with Yachad, meaning "to join, unite" (Strong's 3161), thus carries a similar connotation of unity as does Echad. Strong gives its basic meaning as "united", "sole", and further as "beloved", "lonely". The *Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon* adds also "only" and "unique". The KJV translates this word in Psalm 86:6 as "solitary", in the sense of "lonely".
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yachiyd.html

The word (often transliterated as Yachiyd) is not used of Jehovah in the Bible, and it usually refers to an only son. It corresponds most closely with the English word "only", especially in the sense of only son, only beloved, or lonely, which is perhaps the reason it is not used of Jehovah, since Jehovah is not a son of anyone.

Another word that sometimes means "only" is the word often transliterated as "bad" (Strong's #905), meaning "alone, by itself, besides, a part, separation, being alone". It is used in Deuteronomy 8:3, which word is translated into Greek as *monos*. (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4) *Monos* is the word used to describe the Father in John 17:3 as the "only true God." *Bad* is also used of Jehovah in Nehemiah 9:6, Psalm 83:18; 136:4; Isaiah 2:11,17; 37:16; 44:24.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/bad.html

The Triple Point of Water

It has been argued that water provides a good illustration of composite unity as applied to the trinity. It is claimed that water can be in three forms at once yet all forms are still one thing: water. The test-tube experiment is cited: in a single test tube, the water can be in all three states at the same time! Actually, this is deceptive to say the least, since not all of the molecules of water in the test tube are in all three states all at once. For this to be valid demonstration of the trinity, such would have to occur. What these trinitarians are referring to is called the triple point of water. We present below some quotes from the WEB on the triple state:

All three boundary lines meet at a point called the triple point. At this temperature and pressure, all three phases are in equilibrium with one another
https://mars.nasa.gov/education/modules/mars.pdf

Triple point-the temperature and pressure in which all 3 states of matter co-exist in equilibrium.
http://www.learnchem.net/tutorials/som.shtml

Note that this does not say that all of the water molecules are in all three states at once; it says that they are in equilibrium. Thus, about 1/3 of the molecules would be in the state of, or changing to, the bonding as ice; about 1/3 of the molecules would be in the state of, or changing to, the bonding as liquid; and about 1/3 would be in the state of, or changing to, the bonding as gas. (If applied to the trinity, then 1/3 of God would the Father; 1/3 of God would be the Son, and 1/3 of God would be the Holy Spirit.) Never are all the molecules in the given container in all three states at once! Never is one molecule in all three states at the same time. Putting the three phases in equilibrium at the triple point actually does nothing to change the fact that there are still three phases of a single substance, which coexist in different parts of the vessel that holds them. For this analogy to have any merit toward providing a demonstration of the trinity, you would have to produce a solid liquid gas, that is, the whole body of H2O under consideration would have to be liquid through all of its molecules, and at the same time solid throughout all of its molecules, and at the same time gas throughout all of its molecules.

At least one trinitarian has noted the fallacy of the triple state argument as applied to the trinity, and has written about it online. We will quote a part of what he states:

The three phases of water analogy of the Trinity, although often suggested, is, in fact, an inadequate explanation as understood by traditional orthodox Christianity.... In the water (three states or phases) analogy we see a similar problem. Water, in the aggregate (not individual molecules but in bulk) will be in a phase (solid, liquid, or gaseous) depending on the temperature and pressure. [Along a phase line (of temperature and pressure) it can exist in two phases and at the triple point in all three.] Water can transform from one phase to another, just as the "persons" can in a modalist Trinity. However, in the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, the "persons", while all God, do not change into each other. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, etc. Nor do they change into/from one another. Water can change from one phase to another. Thus, the three phases of water are an inadequate, i.e. heretical, model for the Trinity even though it has some partial value. -- a post by Edward Pothier

The above statement was made by a trinitarian in the newsgroups, and can be found online at:
https://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.christian/msg/d247185e57b134dc?oe=UTF-8

We also received the following email on this concerning whether all the molecules were in all three states at once:

In really short answer, any one molecule can only be in one state at once. The Triple Point is the temperature and pressure at which all three phases can exist together, however each molecule will be in one phase. For more about triple point see this website:
http://onsager.bd.psu.edu/~jircitano/phase.html (Site no longer exists)
Marcy M. Seavey
Education Director
Iowa Project WET and GLOBE Iowa
Iowa Academy of Science

Having shown that this does not give a adequate illustration of the trinity, we now ask: what if there should be a substance that could be in three states throughout all at once? Possibly God could create such. Would it be proof of the trinity? No. It would only prove that such a substance could be in all three states throughout all at once, nothing more. It would not offer a reason to add the idea of the trinity to the scriptures.

The "One Lord" Deception

Some trinitarians will quote Deuteronomy 6:4 from the King James Version (or similar translation) like this: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Then they will turn to 1 Corinthians 8:6, where we read that to the church there is "one Lord Jesus Christ." There is "one Lord", they say, and that "one Lord" is Jesus. Most scholars should know that the two scriptures are not speaking of the same thing. In Deuteronomy 6:4, the KJV, as well as many other translations have substituted "LORD" for the divine name. This should not be done, and to those ignorant of the truth, the above reasoning seems logical. Some will claim that the Greek word "kurios", often rendered "the Lord" in the New Testament, means "Jehovah", since in the extant Greek NT manuscripts we find that kurios is often substituted for the divine name. Such is sophistry, however, for kurios is used of others than Jehovah in the NT, as well as in other Greek writings.* The word "kurios" does not mean "Jehovah", any more than the Hebrew words for "Lord", such as "adon" or "adonai"**, mean "Jehovah". 1 Corinthians 8:6 is not identifying Jesus as the one Jehovah of Deuteronomy 8:6.
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*See our studies on the holy name:
https://nameofyah.blogspot.com/p/on-this-site.html

Likewise, sometimes our trinitarian neighbors will compare Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 6:8 with Zechariah 14:9, using the King James Version, or a similar translation, to reach the conclusion that the "one Lord" of these scriptures is Jesus. Zechariah 14:9, reads, according to the King James Version, "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." By use of the word "LORD" in all caps, the KJV shows that in the Hebrew, the divine name appears, and that "the LORD" has been substituted for the divine name. Thus the World English Bible translation renders this verse in this manner: "Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one." By this we can readily see that Zechariah 14:9 is not speaking about the Lord Jesus, as in 1 Corinthians 8:6, but rather of Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus.
==========
See:
Jesus is Not Jehovah
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/09/jesusnotjah.html

Others will say that Jehovah is referred to as "Lord" many times in the Hebrew scriptures, such as Genesis 15:2,8, Exodus 4:10; 5:22; 15:17; 23:17; 24:17; Deuteronomy 3:24; 9:26; 10:17; Joshua 3:13; 7:7; and many more. Thus, they ask, how can only Jesus be the "one Lord", as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6, if Jehovah is also "Lord"? Actually, 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not state that there is only "one Lord". Let us read 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 from Young's Literal Translation: "for even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven, whether upon earth -- as there are gods many and lords many -- yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him." What it says is that "to us [to the church] there is one Lord "through whom are all things, and we through him." Jehovah is "Lord", but he is not the "one Lord" through whom are the all (Greek transliteration: ta panta). Thus to the church, God has appointed one Lord through whom all things are provided from the God and Father of Jesus to the church (as well as the blessings of the age to come), including the existence of the believers as new creatures in Christ. -- John 1:17; Romans 3:22; 5:10,21; 2 Corinthians 1:20; 5:17,18; Galatians 4:7; 6:15; Ephesians 1:5; 2:10; Philippians 1:11; Titus 3:6.

Paul had just written concerning the idol-gods of the nations, and declares that the informed Christian knows that the idols are nothing. It is these that Paul refers to as those who are "called" gods. On earth, of course, the idols are something in that the carved images are made of wood or stone, and wood and stone is indeed "something", but as far as having the will and might to bring about or influence events in the world to a purposeful outcome, these gods are nothing. Thus, while they are "called" gods, they are not so by nature, which nature is special "might, strength", power, as based on the Hebraic meaning of the words that are translated as "God/god"*. (Galatians 4:8) They have no special might of themselves to perform any prophecy, any purpose, that might be attributed to them. In the heavens, the sun, the moon, stars and constellations, etc., have been called "gods". The sun, the moon, the stars, etc., are indeed something, as far as the substances that are combined in their make-up is concerned. But they are nothing as far as the claim that these are "gods", in that they do not have any will or might bring about any purposeful outcome amongst the intelligent creation, they are "nothing". Yet these have been called "gods" and "lords". The word Adonis comes from the Hebrew word "Adon", meaning "Lord". Thus these are "called" gods and lords, although they are not so by nature, as they, of themselves, cannot perform or accomplish any will, prophecy, or purpose that might be attributed to them. Most are familiar with the usage of the word "baal" (meaning "the Lord", "lord", or "the master") and its usage regarding false gods.
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*See
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"

But Paul continues, "as there are gods many and lords many." The Westcott and Hort Interlinear has this as: "as even are gods many and lords many." Paul acknowledges that there are those who are "called" gods who have no might, no power, and yet he also goes on to acknowledge that there are indeed "many gods and many lords". Does the Bible speak of others than Jehovah as god or lord? Yes, it does. Moses was said to made a god -- a mighty one -- to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel were spoken of as the ELOHIM, the might (as a collective body), in Israel. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 -- see Acts 23:5) The angels are spoken of as "gods" (elohim) in Psalm 82:6,7. (compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4.) The wicked spirit that impersonated Samuel is called elohim, a god, a mighty one. (1 Samuel 28:13) Various kings are referred to as "gods" -- "the strong" (KJV) -- in Ezekiel 32:21. All of these are indeed "gods", and while they have might, strength, power, they do not have such of their own being, but only as they have received such from the Might of the universe, Jehovah. Likewise, many are indeed "lords" in various capacities. The Hebrew word "adon", means "lord" or "master". This word is used of a master over slaves (Genesis 24:14,27), rulers (Genesis 45:8), and husbands. (Genesis 18:12) The original Hebrew text contained only consonants, and adon appears is represented by the four consonants: "aleph-dalet-vav/waw-nun", corresponding somewhat to our A-D-W-N (). Some transliterate this as "'adown". Two other forms of adon are adoni (my Lord), and adonai, my Lords (plural), or a plural intensive -- the plural form used as a superlative -- of "my Lord") The form "adoni" ("my Lord") is represented by the Hebrew characters "aleph-dalet-nun-yod" (corresponding, roughly to the English characters ADNY. The Masoretes, in about the third century or later after Christ, added the vowel point roughly called "quamets" (sounds like the English "a" in the word "all") to form the word "adonai". They added this vowel point wherever they believed that the word referred to Jehovah, and not someone else. Where ADNY appeared to be referring to someone else than Jehovah, they added the vowel point roughly called "hireq", corresponding to the English letter "i" carrying the English short "i" sound, as in the word "machine". This is usually transliterated from the Masoretic text as "adoni".

Once in a while someone will claim that, while "lord" in the Old Testament may be used of others than Jehovah, in the New Testament the word "kurios" is only used of Jesus and his Father. Let us examine to see if this is true.

The Hebrew form adoni is used of Jesus in Psalm 110:1: "Jehovah says to my Lord [adoni], "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet." This scripture is translated into the Greek as "kuriw [an inflection of kurios] mou" [literally, "lord of me"] in Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; and Acts 2:34, where it is applied to Jesus as David's Lord. Thus we can say that Kurios of the New Testament corresponds to the Hebrew word adown (and its variations).

While there are several instances in the parables of Jesus that have the word "kurios" applied to master of a house, or the master of the workers, etc., some may claim that these instances actually apply the word indirectly to Jesus. It is interesting to note, however, that the King James Version renders kurios as "sir" in Matthew 21:30; John 4:11,15,19,49; 5:7; 12:21; as "master(s)" in Mark 12:35; Luke 14:21; 16:13; and as "owners" in Luke 19:33. In many of these instances, it is clear that the speaker is not addressing Jesus as "Jehovah", but simply as an address to a man. Nevertheless, in Matthew 27:63; Acts 17:16,19,30; Ephesians 6:5,9; Colossians 4:11, we have definite instances where the Greek word Kurios is used of others than God or Jesus. Thus it is indeed true that there are indeed "many lords", as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6. None of these "lords", however, is the "one Lord" "through whom" the church receives all things, nor are the members of the church "through" any of these other lords.

Paul further states: "yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him." Several words are usually added by translators to the Greek here, and Young's translation above shows two words added by the brackets []. However, it does not show that the word "things" is also added, although the word "things" is actually added by the translators. The Westcott & Hort Interlinear has "ta panta" as "the all (things)", with the word "things" in parentheses, denoting that it is added to the rendering. The Greek phrase "ta panta" literally means "the all", pertaining to the church. The all that the church has is "of" or "from" the one God, the God and Father of Jesus. "The all" is "from" any of the other who are indeed "gods", and certainly not from any of the idols that are "called" "gods". The believer has offered himself "to" the God and Father of Jesus, through Jesus. -- Acts 20:32; Romans 5:10; 6:10,11; 12:1; 14:8; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 9:11; Galatians 2:19; Ephesians 5:20; Philippians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 7:19,25; 11:6; 12:28; 13:15; James 4:7,8; 1 Peter 2:5; 3:18; 4:6.

The scriptures identify the only true God -- the Supreme Being, the "might" or "MIGHTY ONE" of the universe -- as Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and the prophets. (Jeremiah 10:10; 42:5) Jesus identified the God he prayed to as the same God as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and by stating that his Father is "the only true God" signified that there is only one true Supreme Being, one true Might of the universe. (Luke 20:37; John 8:54; 17:1,3) Who sent the prophets? None other than Jehovah, the Father of Jesus. (Judges 6:8; 1 Samuel 3:20; 1 Kings 16:12; 2 Kings 14:25; 17:3; 2 Chronicles 25:15; Jeremiah 28:12; 37:2,6; 46:1; Ezekiel 14:4; Hosea 12:13; Haggai 1:3,12; 2:1,10; Zechariah 1:1; Acts 3:8) It is this same Jehovah -- the only true God, the God and Father of Jesus -- who also sent Jesus. This same God is therefore the God and Father of Jesus. -- Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1.

Jesus is appointed as the one Lord of the church by Jehovah, the God of Jesus. There is one God, the Father, Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent Jesus (John 17:1,3), and this one God has appointed for the church (as well as for the world regarding the age to come) one Lord, Jesus. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Psalm 2:2,6,8; 45:7; Isaiah 9:7; 61:1; Matthew 28:18; Luke 1:32; John 3:35; 5:22,26,27,30; Acts 2:36; 5:31; 10:42; 17:31; Romans 14:9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:17,20-22.

ELEINU in Deuteronomy 6:4

Some note that the Hebrew word for "God" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is ELEINU (a form of ELOHIM, Strong's #430), and that this word does not mean an absolute singularity, but that it allows for "God" to be more than one. One gives the usage in the Hebrew of Numbers 20:15 (our fathers) and Isaiah 53:5 (our iniquities) for comparison. Actually, if this word is used as a plural, it would mean "our gods", and not "our god". Such would be stating that Jehovah is more than one god*, not more than one person. This would not at all fit in the context of Deuteronomy 6:4, which distinguishes Jehovah as being one as compared to the heathen around them who worshiped a multiplicity of gods. Nevertheless, in Hebrew, a plural form of a word can be used to represent a singular with an intensified meaning. This can be seen from Mark 12:29, where the Greek word for "God" is not at all plural, but singular. Thus, forms of ELOHIM, as applied to Jehovah who is one, although actually plural as to form, they do not mean "gods", but rather the forms of ELOHIM take on the intensified singular meaning of God, as Superior God ("Mighty One") or Supreme God (Mighty One). (See our study: Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?

Since it is a reference to Him who is the source of all might (1 Corinthians 8:6), it would mean Supreme God (Supreme Mighty One). Comparing scriptures, such as Numbers 20:15 (Abith'inu = our Fathers); and Isaiah 53:5 (Aunthi'inu = our iniquities) and 1 Samuel 12:9 (Chtath'inu = our sins), is irrelevant since in the latter scriptures the forms are not being used as a plural intensive. Indeed, applying the plural usage in the scriptures given to ELEINU in Deuteronomy 6:4 would result in the meaning of "gods". The plural intensive of forms of ELOHIM are used in such verses as: Genesis 1:26; 3:5; Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 24:19; 2 Samuel 7:23; Job 35:10; Psalm 29:1; 58:11; and many other scriptures; nevertheless, the use of the plural intensive in these verses gives no evidence at all that Jehovah is more than one person. Thus, there is nothing in the word, ELEINU, that gives any reason to think that Jehovah was saying that He is more than one person. The plural usage of ELEINU does not designate persons all whom are wholly and fully the one God, but rather it designates gods, more than one god.
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*Trinitarians usually object if one says that they believe that there are three gods.

See:
Deuteronomy 6:4 - Elohim and Echad

By Ronald Day at November 29, 2016

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Labels: Echad, Elohim, Plurality of Elohim

Exodus 33:11. Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04) Genesis 16:7-14 Genesis 22:15-19.

Numbers 12:8 Angel of Jehovah (2016-12-04)

Deuteronomy 6:4 - The Meaning of Echad (2016-11-29)

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Elohim and Echad (2013-11-15)

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Deuteronomy 6:4 - Elohim and Echad (2013-11-15)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2012/11/elohim.html

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Elohim and Echad

This is in response to the post entitled:

The Big Bang Theory, The Yankees vs the Tigers, and How can 3=1?

(1) ELOHIM does not ALWAYS refer to a singular God. Nor does its plural usage mean persons or parts of one God, but rather it designates more than one God, that is, "gods", as in Genesis 31:30; 35:2; Exodus 12:12; 15:11; 18:11; 20:3,23; 22:28; 23:13,24,32,33; 32:1,4,8,23,31; 34:15,16,17; Psalm 82:6, and many, many, other scriptures.

(2) ELOHIM as applied to Jehovah (Yahweh) is used as a plural intensive, that is, with an emphatic singular meaning. Some call this the majestic plural, or emphatic plural, etc. Whatever the usage may be called, it still designates a singular, but intensified or magnified, meaning to a plural form of a word. The usage never designates more than one person or individual as combined in one being.

(3) There are no plural verbs or adjectives in Deuteronomy 6:4 that attend the word "ELOHIM", not unless one refers to the word "our", which reflects the plurality of the people of Israel, not ELOHIM. In verse 3, the Hebrew form (Strong's Hebrew #1696) for "speak, commanded, promised" is singular, "he spoke, commanded, promised", not they spoke, commanded or promised.

See:
Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?
Let Us and Elohim
Why is Jesus called “Elohim” and “Theos”?
One God, One Lord
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
and
Elohim Created

(4) The application of "compound unity" to the alleged triune God dogma would mean that the Father is NOT GOD, but a part of God; it would mean that the Son is NOT GOD, but a part of God, and that Holy Spirit is NOT GOD, but a part of God. In a compound unity, the various parts do not equal the whole. A grape in one cluster IS NOT THE CLUSTER, but only a small part of the cluster. A grape alone would not be the cluster. Likewise, to apply compound unity to the alleged trinue God would not fit the trinitarian definition of the trinity.

See:
The Meaning of Echad
**

In reality, the Bible no where ever mentions a triune God, not even once. From Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is ALWAYS presented as one individual, one person, and never once is He presented as more than one person or individual. Any such idea as a triune God has to imagined with the spirit of human imagination, assumptions have to be formed beyond what is written, and then what is imagined and assumed has to be added to, and read into, any and every scripture that is thought to teach trinity.

On top of that, the trinity dogma would negate the role of Jesus as the one who condemned sin the flesh. -- Romans 8:3.

See:
How God's Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh
**

In respects the trinitarian teaching that Jesus is still a human being of flesh, this denies the very basis of redemption in the sacrifice of Jesus, for it would mean that either Jesus never completed his offering of himself in sacrifice to his God, or that he took that offering back -- either way it denies the reason that Jesus became flesh.

See:
Jesus Has Come in the Flesh
Jesus Died as a Human Being - Raised As a Spirit Being
Did Jesus Need to be Uncreated to Pay the Price for Sin?
*******
Related:

E.LO.HIM' -- Many Gods in One God? - Chapter 10 of the book, Should Christianity Abandon the Doctrine of the Trinity?

Originally posted: November 18, 2012; Updated: November 15, 2013.

Judges 13:2-23 - The Angel that Appeared to Manoah and His Wife (2017-04-13)

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Judges 13:2-23 - The Angel that Appeared to Manoah and His Wife (2017-04-13)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/judg13-angel.html

Judges 13:2-23 - The Angel that Appeared to Manoah and His Wife

{Judges 13:2} There was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and didn't bear.
{Judges 13:3} An angel of Jehovah appeared to the woman, and said to her, "See now, you are barren, and don't bear; but you shall conceive, and bear a son.
{Judges 13:4} Now therefore please beware and drink no wine nor strong drink, and don't eat any unclean thing:
{Judges 13:5} for, behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb: and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

{Judges 13:6} Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me, and his face was like the face of an angel of God, very awesome; and I didn't ask him where he was from, neither did he tell me his name:
{Judges 13:7} but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"

{Judges 13:8} Then Manoah entreated Jehovah, and said, "Oh, Lord, please let the man of God whom you did send come again to us, and teach us what we shall do to the child who shall be born."

{Judges 13:9} God listened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again to the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah, her husband, wasn't with her.
{Judges 13:10} The woman made haste, and ran, and told her husband, and said to him, "Behold, the man has appeared to me, who came to me the [other] day."

{Judges 13:11} Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to the woman?"

He said, "I am."

{Judges 13:12} Manoah said, "Now let your words happen. What shall be the ordering of the child, and [how] shall we do to him?"

{Judges 13:13} The angel of Jehovah said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her beware.
{Judges 13:14} She may not eat of anything that comes of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing; all that I commanded her let her observe."

{Judges 13:15} Manoah said to the angel of Jehovah, "Please, let us detain you, that we may make a young goat ready for you."

{Judges 13:16} The angel of Jehovah said to Manoah, "Though you detain me, I won't eat of your bread; and if you will prepare a burnt offering, you must offer it to Jehovah." For Manoah didn't know that he was an angel of Jehovah.

{Judges 13:17} Manoah said to the angel of Jehovah, "What is your name, that when your words happen, we may honor you?"

{Judges 13:18} The angel of Jehovah said to him, "Why do you ask about my name, since it is secret?"

{Judges 13:19} So Manoah took the young goat with the meal offering, and offered it on the rock to Jehovah: and [the angel] did wondrously, and Manoah and his wife looked on.

{Judges 13:20} For it happened, when the flame went up toward the sky from off the altar, that the angel of Jehovah ascended in the flame of the altar: and Manoah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground.

{Judges 13:21} But the angel of Jehovah did no more appear to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of Jehovah.
{Judges 13:22} Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God [or, a god, a mighty one]."

{Judges 13:23} But his wife said to him, "If Jehovah were pleased to kill us, he wouldn't have received a burnt offering and a meal offering at our hand, neither would he have shown us all these things, nor would at this time have told such things as these."

Judges 13:2-23, Restoration Light Improved Version

Many of our trinitarian neighbors point to the angel that appeared to Manoah as proof that Jesus is Jehovah. According one trinitarain, in Judges 13:22 Manoah realizes that he had been speaking to Yahweh himself, and thus realized that "God is one yet compound." According to another trinitarian: "In that same chapter, God is mentioned, the Angel of the Lord (who is called God), is mentioned, and the Spirit of God is mentioned." Let us examine these verses carefully.

The argument is that the "Angel of Jehovah" spoken of here is referred to as "God", when Manoah said "I have seen God", and is therefore actually Jehovah himself. It is then further asserted by many trinitarians that "the angel of the Lord." as they often phrase it, is the second person of their trinity. It is usually first assumed that there is only one "angel of the Lord", and, then it has to be further assumed and read into the scriptures that this angel of Jehovah is actually Jesus. Usually, most translations add the definite article "the" before "angel" even when the Hebrew is indefinite, which to many would seem to justify the conclusion that there is only one "angel" who bears the title "angel of Jehovah". However, we have shown elsewhere that there is one identified in the scriptures as the angel of Jehovah, and this angel is Gabriel. (Luke 1:11-2:12; See our studies related to "Angel of Jehovah") We can say that Gabriel is called an "angel of Jehovah", but Gabriel is definitely neither Jehovah nor Jesus. While we are inclined to believe that the angel that appeared to Manoah and his wife is also Gabriel, we can not be definite in stating this. Rather than claiming to be Jehovah, this angel speaks of Jehovah as someone who is not himself. Manoah and his wife certainly did not see the very being of God, else this would contradict many other scriptures. (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 4:24; 6:46; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Isaiah 40:25,26) They saw him only representatively, through an angel, and in the end Manoah recognizes this man, not as God Almighty, but as an angel of Jehovah. -- Judges 13:21.

Was the Angel's Name Ineffable?

Someone argues that in Luke the angel that appeared identified himself, but the angel that appeared to Manoah and his wife would not identify himself, claiming that his name was ineffable, one too wonderful to be spoken. (Judges 13:17,18) Thus it is evidently being claimed that there are more than one "angel of Jehovah, and that the one that appeared to Manoah was Jehovah himself that appeared in his alleged "second person" of the assumed trinity. To us this really reads a lot into and between the lines to see trinity in this. Part of the basis of this idea stems from the false idea that God's Holy Name is ineffable, and should not be pronounced. See our studies regarding God's Holy Name.

The word translated *wonderful* in many translations at Judges 13:18 is Strong's #6383. It is an adjective. Strong says of this word: "remarkable:--secret, wonderful" BDBG defines it: "wonderful, incomprehensible, extraordinary."* This word, as such, appears in only one other place in the Scriptures -- Psalms 139:6 -- where it is translated "too wonderful" in the King James Version. The idea that this word means that the angel was saying that his name was ineffable has to be read into this.
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*Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for Pil'iy". "The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon".
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=6383.

While we tend to believe that the KJV rendering "secret" to be more correct than "wonderful," let us suppose that the angel actually did say his name was too wonderous. To be wondrous does not mean that the angel was saying that he considered his name so highly esteemed that he did not want to give it, nor was he saying that his name was ineffable. Indeed if this were Jehovah himself, Jehovah is known throughout the OT for revealing His Holy Name in its Hebrew form. The scriptures do not say why the angel spoke in the manner that he did, but we believe that the reason may have been that Manoah was here ready to give great honor to one he thought to be a man, and that as a man -- honor which should evidently only go to Jehovah; the angel recognized this and thus we see here the loyalty of God's true messenger -- he would not take the glory to himself as a man which belonged to God; he did not want it. He was glad, counted it honor enough, to be privileged to do some work for Jehovah. (See Revelation 22:8,9) On many occasions, Jesus did similar to this. -- Matthew 19:17; John 7:28,29; 8:28.

Some trinitarians point to Isaiah 9:6, and endeavor to link this prophecy to what the angel said in Judges 13:18, claiming that in both places the name "Wonderful" is used, and since it is claimed that Jesus is called "Wonderful" in Wonderful Counselor in Isaiah 9:6, that is proves that this angel is Jesus. It is further argued that in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called God*, thus this is alleged to prove that this angel is God Almighty. One argues that the angel in Judges 13:18 is claiming the same proper name ["Wonderful"] as Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, thus the two are one and the same. As we have pointed out in several studies, however, the name in Isaiah 9:6 is more than likely a description of the God of the promised one, not a description of son to whom the name is given.* While we cannot say for a certain that the angel of Judges 13:18 was not Jesus, for he certainly could have been Jesus in his prehuman existence. We have no reason to believe so, however, but even if it was, this does not mean that we need read into this the added-on trinity dogma.
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*We do not believe that the one being spoke of "mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus. See our studies: "Not a Series of Names", "The Singular Name of Son Given", A Singular Name, and "The Singular Name".

Actually, while many translations have the word "wonderful" in both places, the words in Hebrew are not exactly the same, although they are both taken from the root verb, Strong's #6381. In Isaiah 9:6, the word translated "Wonderful" is Strong's #6382. This word is usually used, not as a proper name, but as a common masculine noun to describe the works of Jehovah (Exodus 15:11; Psalm 77:11,14; 78:12; 88:10,12; 89:5; 119:129; Isaiah 25:1; 29:14), and it is used of Jerusalem in Lamenations 1:9. The word used by the angel is Judges 13:18 is not a noun at all, but an adjective. At any rate, the usage of similar words in both places does not prove the contention that either the name of God or of Jesus is ineffable, that is, too great to be uttered; such similarity certainly does not prove that Jesus is Jehovah, or that Jesus is a person of Jehovah, etc.. The word translated "wonders" in the World English Bible of Judges 13:19 is Strong's #6381, which is the root verb for the other two words already discussed. More than likely, however, the thought presented in the KJV of Judges 13:19 is correct, that is, that the angel was speaking of his name as a "secret", possibly because Manoah may have wanted to use that name so as to give worship to the angel that should only belong to Jehovah for whom the angel was serving as a messenger (angel).
See our studies:
Should God's Holy Name Be Pronounced?
Did God's People in Old Testament Times Utter the Holy Name Aloud?

We believe that the proper view is that the angel of Jehovah in Judges 13:18 was telling Manoah that his name was beyond the realm of being given the worship which Manoah wanted to give it. This fits the context, for Manoah, believing that the angel was a man, wanted to give him a greater honor than that which he was due. And thus, we conclude that for this reason, the angel refused to give his name. Thus we believe the thought given in the KJV to be correct, that is, his name was kept "secret" from Manoah.

It is claimed that this angel finally accepted the offering of Manoah, once Manoah realized that he was God Almighty. What does the record actually say? "So Manoah took the young goat with the meal offering, and offered it on the rock to Jehovah: and [the angel] did wondrously, and Manoah and his wife looked on." (Judges 13:19) The record states that Manoah offered the goat to Jehovah. "So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to [Jehovah], and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on." (New American Standard Version) The word translated "wonders" here is Strong's #6381.

"For it happened, when the flame went up toward the sky from off the altar, that the angel of Jehovah ascended in the flame of the altar: and Manoah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground. But the angel of Jehovah did no more appear to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of Jehovah." (Judges 13:20,21) Thus, evidently, it was not until after the offering is consumed by Jehovah, and that the angel ascended in the flames of Jehovah, that Manoah knew that the man was actually the angel of Jehovah.

Many trinitarians point to the fact that Manoah and wife fell on their faces to the ground. It is claimed that Manoah and his wife worshiped the angel, and that this proves that this angel was Jesus as part of their alleged trinity. Actually, the scripture does not say that they were giving worship to the angel, only that they fell on their faces to the ground. And even if they did give worship to the angel, it does not say that they were giving the angel the worship that only belongs of Jehovah. Since the scripture does not say the meaning behind this action, we can say that it possibly could have been a reaction to the intense light that was before them as the angel ascended to the sky in the flames, or it could have been an act of worship to Jehovah. At any rate, bowing before a representative of God, or a personage of honor, does not constitute worship that only belongs to Jehovah. -- Ruth 2:8-10; 1 Samuel 24:8; 25:23,41; 2 Samuel 14:33; 18:28; etc. ----- See also our study: Jesus Received Worship.

Judges 13:22 - Manoah Saw God Almighty?

"Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God [elohim]." (Judges 13:22) Some of our trinitarian neighbors tell us that this is proof positive that the angel himself was actually God Almighty, since Manoah was afraid that he would die because he had seen God. In using the word often transliterated as "Elohim" here, was Manoah actually saying that he thought he had seen God Almighty, or was he saying that he thought he had seen a mighty spirit being, one of the angels*, and thus feared for his life? Did he falsely go from one extreme to another, from believing that the person was a man to thinking that the person was God Almighty? We cannot be for sure, but since the record states that after the angel ascended in the flames, that "then Manoah knew that he was the angel of Jehovah," this tends to discount the idea that Manoah thought he actually saw the being of Jehovah. It is more probable that when Manoah realized that it was actually an angel and not simply a man, that he became afraid that seeing much a superior mighty one [elohim*] would bring his death. We do know if that Manoah and his wife had actually seen the actual substance of God, they surely would have died. -- Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 6:46; 1 John 4:12,20.
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*From the scriptures we learn that certain men and angels are also called ELOHIM: Exodus 4:16; 7:1; Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:7}; 86:6-8; 95:3; 50:1; Psalm 82:6,7 (See John 10:34,35; 1 John 3:2) Additionally, the wicked (familiar) spirit that impersonated Samuel is called elohim. (2 Samuel 28:8,13) Remembering that the basic meaning of the Hebrew words el (God) and elohim (Gods, or God superlative) is strength, might, power, we can see how it is possible that in saying elohim Manoah meant that he feared for his life because the angel of Jehovah was such mighty spirit being, as compared to him who was but a human. See our study: "Hebraic Usage of the Titles for God"

In reality, an angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah whom the angel is serving as a messenger, although Jehovah can certainly speak by means of His messengers, and Jehovah may be addressed by means of Jehovah's messenger, but the messenger whom Jehovah sends is not Himself. Additionally, the reality is that any thought that an angel of Jehovah is a separate and distinct person of Jehovah has to be imagined beyond what is written; it has to be further imagined and assumed that this angel was Jesus, and thus in reality it is what has been imagined and assumed that the trinitarian actually offers as proof of the trinity in Judges 13. What we do not find anywhere in Judges 13, or anywhere else in the entire Bible, is the thought that Yahweh -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- is more than one person, or that Yahweh consists of three separate and distinct persons.

Addendum

The question is asked: If Manoah was mistaken when said he had seen God, wouldn't his statement, in effect, be a lie, and therefore that Manoah would be a liar? We answer: As we have presented above, we believe Manoah may have used the word elohim [the Hebrew is indefinite] as meaning a superior mighty one, as is used of an angel. Nevertheless, if Manoah had been thinking that he had seen God Almighty, any error in statement in the broad sense of the word is a lie, in that it is not the truth. In this sense, all men are liars. (Romans 3:4) This does not mean that such are willful liars, however. However, since Jehovah spoke through His angel to Manoah Jehovah's angel could seem to have been Jehovah himself, which could have led to his fear. Similary, we should also note that both Manoah and his wife also called this angel a "man", not knowing that he was angel. (Judges 13:6,8,10,11) Additionally, when Manoah asked the angel if he was the 'man' that had spoken to his wife, the angel answered: "I am," the angel acknowledged this usage toward him. (Judges 13:11) Was the angel lying in saying the he was this "man"? Likewise, in verse 11, the writer of the book of Judges himself refers to the angel as "the man." The angel was not actually a 'man', that is, a human, but he appeared as a human, and therefore could be spoken of a "man". The angel did appear in a body as a man. Likewise the angels that appeared to Abraham are referred to as "men". (Genesis 18:16,22) We do not consider this to be actual ying, it is just stating matters as they were in their appearance, and likewise, if Manoah thought that the angel was Jehovah Himself, this would have been a reaction to what it seemed to him.

Ronald R. Day, Sr, Restoration Light Bible Study Services (ResLight, RlBible)

By Ronald Day at April 13, 2017

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Job 19:25 - Job's Redeemer and the Messiah (2019-04-01)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2019/04/job19-25.html

Job 19:25 - Job's Redeemer and the Messiah

Job 19:25 But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives.(a) In the end, he will stand [arise, be established - same word used in Deuteronomy 18:18(b)] upon the earth.
Job 19:26 After my skin is destroyed, Then in my flesh shall I see God,

Job 19:27 Whom I, even I, shall see on my side. My eyes shall see, and not as a stranger. "My heart is consumed within me."
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(a) http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/quwm.html
(b) http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/chay.html

Some quote Job 19:25 and claim that this speaking of Jesus, and that since Jehovah is spoke of redeemer in the Old Testament, this is alleged to prove that Jesus is Jehovah.

First we need to note that there is nothing in these verses that give any indication that Jehovah is more than one person; there is nothing stated to the effect that Jesus is Jehovah. There is definitely nothin in these verses or any other verses in the Bible that depict Jehovah as being more than one person, as claimed by trinitarians. Any such thoughts have to be assumed and read into what is being stated.

Job later stated to Jehovah: "now my eye sees you." (Job 42:5) No man can actually see the substance of God Himself and live; Job had not physically seen the substance of God, thus he was speaking of seeing with his mental eyes, his understanding.

Job expresses that he knows that His redeemer lives; this statement has been variously interpreted. If Job was referring to Jehovah (Yahweh) as his redeemer, yes, his redeemer was then living. Jesus, also, was then living with his God and Father in heaven (John 17:5), but we do not know that such knowledge was revealed to Job.

We should remember that Hebrew verbs do not represent time tense, as do verbs in most of our modern languages, such as English. Additionally, Job, more than likely, had heard of God's promise of a redeemer, seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15), the seed of Abraham, who was to deliver mankind and bring forth the blessings of all the nations. (Genesis 28:14) Thus, if Job was speaking of the coming redeemer, Job expresses that he knows that his redeemer will live, in the future. At the time that Job spoke the words recorded in Job 19, he had not yet heard and seen that which God later spoke to him. Yet, by faith, he looked forward to the coming time when his redeemer would come and be established upon the earth. Jesus did come in these latter times (Hebrews 1:2) and he physically stood upon the earth back in what we today call the first century AD. Having now sacrificed his body of flesh for our sins (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18), we have no reason to believe that Jesus will physically stand upon the earth again with such a body of flesh, although it is possible that he could do similarly to way that angels appeared a "men" at various times. Job, however believed that even though his flesh be destroyed, he would yet in his flesh be able to see God.

Some may object that since Job uses the present tense, that this could not apply to then yet coming Messiah, and that Job did not have knowledge that Jesus was then existing. As already noted, Biblical Hebrew does not have tenses; in English, however, we express practically everything with verbs as related to time. Biblical Hebrew does not do this. Thus, Job could have been have been speaking of the one yet to come, in whom was life, a life that could be given to God for the deliverance of mankind from the condemnation of death. -- John 1:4; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; Ephesians 5:2.

Young's translation renders Isaiah 11:6-9:

6 And a wolf hath sojourned with a lamb, And a leopard with a kid doth lie down, And calf, and young lion, and fatling [are] together, And a little youth is leader over them. 7 And cow and bear do feed, Together lie down their young ones, And a lion as an ox eateth straw. 8 And played hath a suckling by the hole of an asp, And on the den of a cockatrice Hath the weaned one put his hand. 9 Evil they do not, nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For full hath been the earth with the knowledge of Jehovah, As the waters are covering the sea.

However, most translators put this in the future tense:

6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. -- American Standard Version.

However, it is possible that Job was speaking of Jehovah as being the Redeemer; if so, we certainly should not expect that Jehovah Himself will physically stand on the earth, and that people will be able to look upon the Most High. (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18) In Exodus 17:6, Jehovah used the same Hebrew word for "stand" as Job used in Job 19:25. Jehovah said to Moses: "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink." (ASV) Was Jehovah there in some physical body standing before Moses? No, we have no reason to think so; but we would should rather reason that by "stand" Jehovah meant His invisible spiritual presence.

Nevertheless, God is the redeemer in the sense that he is source of redemption, and He will certainly become established throughout the whole earth in that the knowledge of His glory will indeed fill the earth. Jehovah redeems man by means of his son, who is to deliver man out of the condition of sin and back into harmony with God. With such redemption, one can then "see" God, that is, mentally comprehend things pertaining to God which he could not otherwise comprehend. Job knew that such comprehension would come when he is raised in the day of the resurrection..

By Ronald Day at April 01, 2019

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The name “Immanuel”, however, is not the personal name of Jesus, for the scriptures as translated by most translations show that personal name in English as “Jesus“, meaning “Jehovah is savior”. The name acknowledges Jesus’ God, Jehovah (Micah 5:4) was being savior. In effect, the name “Jesus” attributes salvation to the God and Father of Jesus. Likewise, the name “Immanuel” is a titular name, not the personal name of the one being spoken of being born.

Why should Immanuel be a name given to Jesus? Because by means of Jesus, God is with his people, and through Jesus, God saves his people from the condemnation with Adam. How so?

The scriptures tell us in Acts 10:38; “How God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.” Here “God” is depicted as one doing the anointing of Jesus, and is said to be with Jesus. (See Isaiah 61:1) If God was with Jesus, then, through Jesus, God was with his people. Bearing the titular name Immanuel does not mean that Jesus was his God who was with Jesus.

In the greatest sense, for God to be with His people would require reconciliation with God. Mankind was alienated from God through Adam’s sin, but God sent His Son as human so that Jesus could offer his body of flesh with its blood to his God for sin of the world, thereby making the way for mankind to be reconciled to Jesus’ God. For more with scriptural references, see: The Basis for Atonement

Additionally, Isaiah 8:8 is speaking of Sennacherib, a king of Assyria, would “pass through Judah.” This prophecy refers to King Sennacherib, for Tiglath-pileser, who slew Pekah and Rezin, did not pass through Judah. Through Isaiah, the people of Judah were told that Jehovah would take care of them and they were not even to defend themselves. The army of Sennacherib did come to Judah. After prophesying about Tiglath-pileser, Isaiah abruptly starts to prophesy about Sennacherib and uses the same language. Sennacherib would overflow into Judah; in fact, he flooded the land almost to the capital (“the neck”), and there he had his spokesman call up to the people, “You had better give in and submit peaceably because your God is not able to defend you.” Isaiah counseled the people not to worry, for God would fight the battle. King Sennacherib was likened to a tremendous bird such as an eagle or a vulture. So large was the bird that “the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy [Immanuel’s] land.” Thus, we conclude that to those hearing the prophecy in Isaiah’s day, “Immanuel” was Judah. The land of Judah was pictured as a person, the neck or head being Jerusalem. The name “Immanuel” depicts how God was with Judah. Judah was delivered from Sennacherib not by battle instruments but by Jehovah’s destroying angel in one night. Thus God was with Judah in that God fought for Judah. Thus, the name Immanuel as used in Isaiah 8:8 is evidently speaking of God being with his people, that his favor and strength was with his people so as to deliver his people, not that God was a man dwelling among the people.

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Outside the Bible, we cannot say for sure whether any baby in Bible times was ever named “Immanuel” or not. We know that in later Jewish history, several have held the name Immanuel, without any thought that the bearer of the name was God Almighty.

For further study, see:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/immanuel.html

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Isaiah

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Isaiah

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/search/label/Isaiah

No Savior Besides Jehovah

(God's Holy Name is presented as "Jehovah," regardless of translation used.)

It is often asserted that in Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; and Hosea 13:4; Jehovah (Yahweh) asserts that he alone is the savior. From this trinitarians, as well as some others, entertain the thought that if Jesus is the savior of the world, then, according to their application of the above verses, since only Jehovah is the savior, then Jesus must be Jehovah. The trinitarian then calls upon the spirit of human imagination to further claim that this means that Jesus is a person of Jehovah, the only true God.

Isaiah 43:11 -- WEB
I, even I, am [Jehovah]; and besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21 -- WEB
Declare you, and bring [it] forth; yes, let them take counsel together: who has shown this from ancient time? who has declared it of old? Haven't I, [Jehovah]? and there is no God else besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me, a just God and a Savior; there is no one besides me.

Hosea 13:4 -- WEB
"Yet I am [Jehovah] your God from the land of Egypt; And you will know no god but me, And besides [Biltiy, excepting] me there is no savior.

There are several things to note about all these scriptures wherein Jehovah says that besides him there is no savior.

(1) Although there are hints related to in the context of some of the prophecies of the coming salvation by means of Jesus, Jehovah is not directly speaking of himself as being the savior of the world, but directly as the deliverer of Judah and Israel. -- Isaiah 43:1,3,12; 45:4,5,11,15,25; Hosea 13:1,2,4

(2) Jehovah is speaking of himself as compared to the false would-be saviors (idol-gods, kings, etc.) of the heathen nations, or even their own kings (Isaiah 43:9; 45:21; Hosea 13:1,2,10) that the Israelites seemed to be constantly going to for deliverance, as apart from Jehovah.

(3) The Hebrew words for besides means "except, without, etc.," and does preclude the thought that Jehovah could send another who is not Himself as savior of Israel. Indeed, Jehovah sent many saviors to Israel, all of which were not apart from, or in exception of, Jehovah, but were in accord with Jehovah. Saviors sent by Jehovah are not “apart from” Jehovah, nor are they “without” Jehovah. Nevertheless, by their being sent by Jehovah and coming in his name signifies that Jehovah is still the only ultimate savior, thus it could still be said that there is no savior besides (without, apart from) him. -- Judges 2:18; 3:9-15; 1 Samuel 12:10,11; Nehemiah 9:27; 2 Kings 13:5; 14:27.

(4) There is no savior apart from Jehovah, but being the savior, He does appoint others as saviors -- not that they apart from Jehovah, bur rather that Jehovah is with them. Likewise, this same manner he sent his son as savior of the world. However, this does not deny that besides, or apart from, Jehovah there is no savior, since Jehovah is the one who is the ultimate source of the salvation he provides by means of such saviors, including his Son. Jehovah's son is not besides, aside from, Jehovah, since Jehovah, the God of Jesus, sent him. (Isaiah 61:1,2; Micah 5:4) It is as Samson stated to Jehovah: “You have given this great deliverance [salvation] by the hand of your servant.” (Judges 15:18) And Jehovah spoke of David: “By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.” (2 Samuel 3:18) And Psalmist said: “You led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.” (Psalm 77:20) Thus, God sent Jesus that “the world should be saved through him” (John 3:16,17) so that “the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) In Romans 6:23, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. Rather than being apart from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we read that "God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him." (Acts 10:38; See Isaiah 61:1) In Acts 10:38, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. The salvation from God by means of Jesus is not apart from Jehovah, for Jehovah is the one who has provided the salvation through Jesus. "All things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:18) "God" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 refers to one person, not three persons, and that one person is held as distinct from "Jesus Christ (meaning anointed one, the one anointed by Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- Exodus 3:14,15; Isaiah 61:1)."

at July 05, 2011 No comments:

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called

Isaiah 9:5 - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - Jewish Publication Society translation. (This is Isaiah 9:6 in most translations)

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.

Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.

As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.

In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.

Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”

So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.

In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.

See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html

Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Why is Jesus called "Mighty God" at Isa. 9:6?

This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/

Isaiah 6:8 - Who Will Go For Us? (2017-05-17)

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Isaiah 6:8 - Who Will Go For Us? (2017-05-17)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/05/isa6-8.html

Isaiah 6:8 - Who Will Go For Us?

Isaiah 6:8 - And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said: "Here am I; send me."

A trinitarian argues from the above the scripture that Isaiah heard the voice of Yahweh [in eternity past], and is referring to himself as more than one person.

Obviously, there is nothing here about these words being said in "eternity past". Such an idea has to be added to and read into what Isaiah said. If one would be consistent in following such reasoning, one would conclude that Isaiah himself had been hearing these words in "eternity past", and thus that Isaiah himself had existed in "eternity past" so as to be hearing these words in "eternity past".

We believe that Isaiah himself is playing a part in the prophetic role, depicting the church of Jesus who was yet to be. Each believer is depicted as hearing the voice of the Lord, asking, "Whom shall I send", and thus is depicted as responding: "Here am I."

The Masoretic text has "Adonai" (transliterated) where "the Lord" appears in most translations. The claim is made by some that this is one of the places copyists replaced Jehovah (Yahweh) with Adonai, and thus some translations have the Holy Name in the scripture. Nevertheless, the Great Isaiah Scroll does not have the holy name in Isaiah 6:8, but rather the Hebrew characters representing Adoni [transliterated, meaning "my Lord"] or Adonai [Literally, my Lords, used singularly, however, it means superlative or superior "Lord"].

At any rate, it is probable that Isaiah originally meant this to be "my Lord" [adoni], referring to the coming Lord of Isaiah [representing the believer]. From the New Testament, the coming "lord" is shown to be Jesus, the promised Messiah. In such a case, the words in question, who will go for us, appears to be those of Jesus directed toward his God, Jehovah. If so, the "us" refers to both Yahweh and Jesus. The one to "go" for them would be Isaiah (picturing the church individually). The fulfillment of the prophecy supports that ADNY (transliterated) in Isaiah 6:8 is not Jehovah, but Jesus.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said, for he recognized that no one could come to him except that his God and Father should draw such an one to Jesus.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:45 - Everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

John 6:65 - No one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.

The "us" would be both Jehovah and Jesus. The one to "go" for them would be represented by Isaiah, individually those who learn of Jehovah and come to Jesus.

However, the Great Isaiah Scroll does have the Hebrew word of God's name in Isaiah 6:11 -- not Adoni or Adonai. Thus it is possible that "the Lord" in Isaiah 6:8 is referring to Jehovah. Assuming that "the Lord" here is Jehovah, then this would only mean that Jehovah is simply speaking to Jesus, saying who will go for us?

Regardless, "us" would still be Yahweh and Jesus, and in no wise would mean that Jesus is Yahweh. If Tom says to his son, "Who will represent us in court?", is Tom saying he and his son are one sentient being?

See also:
Isaiah Saw His Glory

By Ronald Day at May 17, 2017

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Isaiah 7:14 – Immanuel – God with Us

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/isa7-14/

Isaiah 7:14 – Immanuel – God with Us

Posted on May 24, 2010 | 1 Comment

Matthew 1:23 – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;” which is, being interpreted, “God with us.”

For further study, see:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/immanuel.html

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Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called (2009-01-06)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2009/01/isa9-6.html

Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called

Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called (2009-01-06)

The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6 (2008-07-16)

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The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6 (2008-07-16)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/07/isaiah-96.html

The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God [Hebrew transliteration: EL GIBBOR], Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. -- Isaiah 9:6, Young's Literal Translation.

As given in Young's translation, it shows that the titles are anarthrous, without the definite article "the" before each title. Of course, the capitalization of these "titles" are also added be the translators.

What does the trinitarian need to assume concerning Isaiah 9:6? First, it appears that he would assume that "name" (singular) really means "names" (plural) or titles (plural). Then he has to assume that EL GIBBOR is a singular name/title applied to Jesus. Then he has to assume that EL GIBBOR, as applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is Yahweh.

It is Yahweh, however, who is giving the son to Israel, and it is also Yahweh who is giving this "name" to the son, as can be seen in Isaiah 9:7, "The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this."

If EL GIBBOR should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, the context should let us know that the expression "el gibbor" would not signify Yahweh. Therefore, we should determine the meaning el gibbor as it would apply to the one given by Yahweh, and not automatically assume that it means that Jesus is Yahweh. In keeping with the context, then it should be understood as the term is used in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. I do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as "The strong among the mighty." Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as "mighty god" is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Yahweh, who is therefore not Yahweh, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, "a strong one among the mighty."

Likewise, if the title "everlasting father," is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be understood in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the "last Adam," who "became the life-giving spirit," who, in effect, is takes Adam's place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus "everlasting father."

However, the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 depicts a singular name by which the son who is given shall be called. The name given is given by Yahweh. The name, being singular, does not depict a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name to a human or thing does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Powerful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

Nevertheless, as shown above, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh who sent Jesus. There is definitely nothing in the verse about three persons in one God or any kind of concept as expressed in the trinity dogma, except that one add that dogma to, and read that dogma into, what is stated in Isaiah 9:6.

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Isaiah 9:6 - He Doth Call His Name (2011-10-14)

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/2011/10/isaiah-96-he-doth-call-his-name.html

Isaiah 9:6 - He Doth Call His Name

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. -- Isaiah 9:6, Young's Literal Translation.

As given in Young's translation, it shows that the titles are anarthrous, without the definite article "the" before each title. Of course, the capitalization of these "titles" are also added be the translators. In the Hebrew, the phrase rendered "Mighty God" is usually transliterated as "EL GIBBOR".

If "mighty God" should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, we should note how such a title would apply to one who is not Yahweh, rather than to assume that Jesus is here being referred to as Yahweh. Since it is Yahweh, the only true God who, in context (Isaiah 9:7), is performing these things, the default assumption should be that child being given by Yahweh is not Yahweh. The scriptures present to us the fact that it is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who anoints the Messiah -- thus making the one sent by Yahweh into the Messiah. (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 10:38) Again, the default reasoning should be that Yahweh is not the Messiah who was sent by Yahweh.

But, how could the title "mighty god" be applied to the Messiah, if the Messiah is not Yahweh? What many do not realize is that there is a Hebraic usage of the words that are often rendered as "God" wherein the words are used in more general sense of "might", "strength", or "power." Form of the word "EL", as can be seen by consulting any good Hebrew concordance, is often translated by various words of general designation of might, power, etc. Such a usage is shown in the King James rendering of the same phrase (EL GIBBOR, only in a plural form) in Ezekiel 32:21. We do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as "Mighty Gods", but it usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as "The strong (a form of the Hebrew EL) among the mighty (a form of the Hebrew Gibbor)." Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as "mighty god" is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Yahweh, who, by default, should be assumed to therefore not be Yahweh, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, "a strong one among the mighty." Jesus is indeed a strong one among the mighty, but he is not his Supreme Being.

Likewise, if the title "everlasting father," is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be understood in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the "last Adam," who "became the life-giving spirit," who, in effect, is takes Adam's place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus "everlasting father."

However, the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 depicts a singular name; it does not depict a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Poweful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

Nevertheless, as I have shown above, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh who sent Jesus. There is definitely nothing in the verse about three persons in one God, the trinity.

Related Studies That I Have Posted Elsewhere:

The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6

Father of Eternity

Isaiah 9:6 - Not a Series of Names

The Singular Name of the Son Given

The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

Studies by Other Bible Students

Pastor C T Russell Discusses The Day - C.T. Russell

The Story of Jesus - C.T. Russell

Mighty God, Everlasting Father - C.T. Russell

The Mighty God - Mark Tribble

Unto Us a Child is Born - Robert Seklemian

Wonderful Counselor - David Stein

The Prince of Peace - Mark Grillo

Material Written By Others

Why Is Jesus Called "Mighty God" at Isaiah 9:6?

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Isaiah 9:6

The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6

https://notrinity.blogspot.com/search/label/Isaiah%209%3A6

Isaiah 9:6 - He Doth Call His Name (2011-10-14)

Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6 - The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

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Isaiah 9:6 - The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/09/isa9-6-mgod.html

Isaiah 9:6 - The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh [Jehovah] of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.

Image by Ronny Overhate from Pixabay

In Isaiah 9:6, we are given a descriptive "name" (singular) of our Lord Jesus. The Hebrew name has been transliterated as: "Pele-Joez-el-gibbor-abia-ad-Sar-Shalom." (The dashes between words are supplied by the one who gave this transliteration.) Most translations break this "name" down into different titles by adding commas, so that many have often referred to each title as a separate "name" of the Messiah. In actuality, however, it is given in the scripture as a singular (descriptive) name, not a set of "names" (plural).

If one understands how the seed of Abraham (Jesus and those who belong to him in this age) will bless all the families of the earth when the saints are revealed, then one one can understand that this "name" prophetically speaks of the coming reign of Jesus and the saints, when "the government will on this shoulder". In the context, Isaiah 9:7 includes the millennial reign, but also includes the "ages to come" after the millennial reign. We read there: "Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever." Then we find the statement: "The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:7) Thus this coming time when Messiah will be called by the name given Isaiah 9:6 is yet future, and is the result of Jesus' God, Jehovah (Luke 1:32,33). Thus we recommend a study of "Mankind's Course to the Day of Judgment"

Mankind's Course to the Day of Judgment

as well as the studies at:

https://rlbibleresources.blogspot.com/2017/07/bible-study-series.html

As a singular name, we believe that the name itself describes, not the bearer of the name, but rather the God of the bearer. Nevertheless, if the titles are applied to Jesus as presented in the added commas that are often put into the name, we find that two of the titles often attributed to our Lord Jesus have often caused much confusion to many Christians. They are misused to teach the early heresy of a triune God - or three persons in one god, equal in power, glory and all other respects. It is claimed that Isaiah 9:6 proves the dual nature of Jesus. We will in this study present the background material that should clear up the misunderstanding concerning these two titles attributed to Jesus.

Many reach a wrong conclusion because in most of our English translations, the phrase often transliterated as "el gibbor" [or as many prefer, EL gibbowr] is rendered as a separate name/title, usually with captalization, "Mighty God", "the Mighty God", or sometimes "a Mighty God". Thus the claim is often made that since there is only one "God", thus Jesus is here being called the Supreme Being. Of course, one has to either deny or ignore the Hebraic usage of the Hebrew word EL, as well as the context of Isaiah 9:6, which distinguishes the only true God from the one whom the only true God gives as a son. Our trinitarian neighbors are quick to point out that the same phrase is used of Jehovah in Isaiah 10:20,21 (some also point to Jeremiah 32:18). Some claim that this phrase is only used of Jehovah in the Old Testament scriptures. As we shall see, this is misleading, to say the least. The same Hebrew phrase is used also in Ezekiel 32:21, although the phrase is possibly used as a plural intensive in this verse, (often transliterated as elei gibborim). In this verse, as far as we know, no English translation renders the Hebrew word EL as "God", but rather with its general meaning of "might", "power", "strong", etc. The King James Version renders the Hebrew phrase (two Hebrew words) in Ezekiel by using five English words: "The strong among the mighty". In other words the King James translators recognize that the word EL here is not referring to the Supreme Being, but rather that it is being used of generic "strength", thus they rendered it as "strong". Similarly, the World English Bible translation renders Ezekiel 32:21 as:

The strong [ELIE - a form of Strong's #410, EL] among the mighty [GIBBORIM] shall speak to him out of the midst of Sheol with those who help him: they are gone down, they lie still, even the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Jay Green's interlinear (word-for-word) rendering is:

shall speak to him The strong [EL - Strong's #410] of the mighty [gibbowr - Strong's #1368] from the of midst Sheol.

See Analysis of Ezekiel 32:21:
https://biblehub.com/text/ezekiel/32-21.htm

In Ezekiel 32:21, we have a form of the phrase El GIBBOR, although it is plural in the Hebrew; it is the same basic phrase of Isaiah 9:6, speaking pictorially of the kings who had already lost their rulership to the king of Babylon, as though they were in a death-like condition in sheol. The New Living Bible translates this phrase as "mighty leaders". The New Century translation renders it: "the leaders of the mighty ones." Rotherham renders it: "the chiefs of the mighty." The Geneva Bible renders it: "The most mighty and strong." The Bishop's Bible translates it: "The mightie worthies." Wycliffe renders it: "The myytieste of stronge men." Most translations render it something like "the strong among the mighty". Using these translations of Ezekiel 32:21 as a pattern, EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 could also be rendered "Mighty and Strong", or "Mighty One of Strength", especially since the context shows that the one being spoken of is not the only true God, Jehovah. However, with the reasoning often presented, that EL GIBBOR can only apply to Jehovah, then by this same manner of reasoning we should conclude that all the kings pictured as speaking from sheol are Jehovah the only true God. The fact is that the reasoning is false; EL, when used of others than Jehovah, takes on a general meaning of strength, might, power, etc., and thus EL GIBBOR can be used of others without designating them as the Supreme Being.

As we have pointed out elsewhere*, the word El has a dual meaning, one of which is the Might of the universe (Supreme Being), and the generic meaning of "strength", "power", "might", etc. This word is Hebrew #410 in Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary, which defines it as: "short. from 352; strength; as adj. mighty; espec. the Almighty (but used also of any deity)." StudyLight's Online Hebrew Lexicon defines it similarly: "shortened from 0352 ... 1) god, god-like one, mighty one; 1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes; 1b) angels; 1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations); 1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah; 2) mighty things in nature; 3) strength, power".

Other authorities give it the same or similar meanings. Consequently it is applicable to any powerful being and especially so the most powerful - the Almighty Jehovah
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*See our study on :"The Hebraic Usages of the Titles for 'God'"

That the word is thus used may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in italics: "It is in the power of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no might in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our power." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the great mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the power of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Who among the sons of the mighty." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Jehovah] among the Gods [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Jehovah], O ye mighty." (Psalm 29:1) "The mighty God [ruler] even the Lord [Jehovah]." -- Psalm 50:1.

If we notice the above texts carefully and critically, all will agree that the context in every case shows the meaning of the Hebrew word El to be powerful one or mighty. And we also have the statement in the last three quotations that Jehovah is the Supreme "El" [the Supreme Being] and rules over all other ones called "el" - powerful ones or mighty ones. And it should be noted that Jehovah is the name applied to none other than the Supreme Being - our Father, and him whom Jesus called Father and God. (John 17:1,3: 20:17; Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Rom. 8:34; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Pet. 3:22) The meaning then of the words "Mighty God" in our text, is: "He shall be called the Mighty One of Strength. And so he is, for to him the Father has given all power in earth and heaven. (Matthew 28:19, and 11:27) "He is Lord of all" - next to the Father for "The head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3) All the things subjected to him, however, is with the evident exception of the Supreme Being who has given him this power. (1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:3,17-23) Jesus and his God are one in mind, purpose, etc., because Jesus willingly submitted his own will to that of his God and Father (John 5:30) just as we also must willfully submit our own will, mind, spirit to that of the Father if we would be made heirs and sons of God.

Many trinitarians, however, claim that this submission is one person of God to another person of God. In reality, nowhere does the Bible ever even give a hint that one being equals three persons. All through the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is spoken of as ONLY one person; he never presents Himself as more than one person, and no Bible writer ever speaks of Him as more than one person. The trinitarian thought has to added to and read into each and every scripture presented to allegedly support the trinity, and imaginative interpretations, such as the one just mentioned, have to be offered to make many other scriptures seem to be in harmony with the added-on doctrine. As a result, what is actually presented as proof of the trinity is what the trinitarian leads a person to imagine and assume regarding a verse, and not what is actually said. The trinitarian feels he needs to add all this to the Bible in order to maintain the concept of "monotheism". But there is more to this than this, for many of them believe, contrary to what the scriptures say, that a "man" could not redeem man. Many of them tell us that Jesus had to be God in order to pay the price for sin, although there is no scripture anywhere that says such. Indeed, all the scriptures declare that what was required was "a [sinless] man", not God, to give himself in sacrifice to God. God did not sacrifice himself to himself. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Ephesians 5:2; Philippians 4:18) Additionally, if Jesus was actually Jehovah in the flesh, as many claim, then rather than condemning sin in the flesh, he actually justified sin in the flesh. See our study: "How God's Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh".

It has been claimed that the Jews had expected that the Messiah would be God Almighty himself, based on Isaiah 9:6. This is actually an assertion rather than reality. The Jewish Publication Society Bible (JPS) translation (1908) renders Isaiah 9:6 as: "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; [Footnote: That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.]" The Hebrew is expressed in this translation as a singular "name". We doubt that any ancient Hebrew reading this would imagine, assume, and read into this verse that the one being spoken of was being called God Almighty.*

What about Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18? Yes, this phrase is applied to Jehova in these two verses, and we believe that in Isaiah 9:6, it is also applied to Jehovah, the one who sent Jesus. (Isaiah 61:1) But even if one applies EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 as a separate name or title to Jesus, it would not mean that Jesus is Jehovah, but only that Jesus is a mighty one, as shown above. Of course, Jehovah, being the Almighty, is most certainly a Mighty One of Power, so the title is applicable to him. Surely the phrase EL GIBBOR *can* be used of Jehovah. This does not mean that it cannot be also used of the Messiah as the one anointed by Jehovah. (Psalm 2:6; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27) Isaiah 9:7 shows that Jehovah is the one who causes the name of Isaiah 9:6 to be called upon the Messiah, thereby distinguishing between Jehovah who send the son from the son who is sent.

This does not mean that the same title, if applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is the Supreme Being, any more than it means that kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21 are Jehovah. The big difference of application to Jehovah from its application to the Messiah is that the position of the Mighty One of Power in Isaiah 9:6 is a position and name given to Jesus by Jehovah, the only true Most High. Add to this the fact Jehovah is distinguished in the context from the Messiah being spoken of in Isaiah 9:6. (Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 11:1-5; Luke 1:32,33; John 5:22,23,27) Jesus is not the Most High; Jesus is the Son of the Most High.

On one site, the claim is made that in Isaiah 9:6, "Jesus is clearly God, (Everlasting Father) and Wonderful Counselor (the Holy Spirit) and the Prince of Peace (Christ)." Thus, this author would make the alleged second person of the alleged triune God/Godhead to be all three of the alleged persons of the triune God/Godhead, evidently without realizing this evident self-contradiction. Of course, this author is using a translation that contains the placement of commas so as to make it appear that more than one name is involved, rather than the singular "name" as the scripture clearly shows.

At any rate, there is nothing in the phrase EL GIBBOR as part of the "name" by which the Messiah "shall be called" that means that Jesus is his God. At the end of this study we are providing several ways that Isaiah 9:6 has been translated by different translators. Please notice how EL GIBBOR is rendered in those translations.

Everlasting Father

The second appellation, "Everlasting Father," means in the Hebrew just what it does in English, that is: "a father forever." The word father signifies cause or authorship of being - or life giver. While we believe that phrase is actually in reference to the God and Father of Jesus, even if applied to Jesus, Isaiah's declaration would only mean that Jesus will be hereafter known as an author of life - or life giver to someone. To whom will he give life? Paul answers: "As in Adam all die so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) The "all" being referred to are Adam and his descendants. (Romans 5:12-19) From this we learn that Christ becomes the Father of the entire human race, becoming the "last Adam", the father of the regenerated race, as Adam was the father of generation that came to be perverse, corrupt, through Adam's sin.

In this regard, we should note what plane of life is given to the regenerated race of Adam. The scriptural answer is: "a sinless human plane of life," hence an eternal human life - just what they lost through Adam's transgression. So Paul tells us (Romans 5:18,19): "As through one [man's] offense judgment came on all men to condemnation [condemning all to a loss of life] so also, through one [man's] righteous act judgment came on all men to justification of life. [That is, through the obedience of Christ the death penalty will be removed - in - by means of -- his death. The death penalty was paid and all men will have a right to life again - the same plane of life and glory once possessed, then lost, which has been redeemed or purchased back.] For as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners [and because sinners deprived of life], so also, through the obedience of the one [Christ] the many [the same number] will be constituted [made] righteous."

We see then that the special work of Christ for the human race was the counteracting or rolling back of the penalty of Adamic sin - death (the cessation of life), so that the human race may be regenerated as a new creation. In this, Jesus is the Great Physician or Restorer; and the age during which this (result of his death on their behalf) will be accomplished is called "The Times [years] of restoration" - or giving back - of the blessing lost through the entrance of sin. Sinless human life was the principal thing lost and it Jesus is to give back - and in so doing he will (future) be called "Everlasting Father." [The "joint-heirs" with Christ who are selected in this age are exceptions in that they attain the resurrection of Jesus, the resurrection of a heavenly, not earthly glory.*]

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*For a detailed presentation of the scriptures concerning the two general glories to be given in the resurrection, please see our studies:
With What Kind of Body Will We Be Raised?
and The Manner of the Resurrection

Adam was so created that he might be the father or life giver to a race of human beings. Through disobedience Adam lost his own right to life - became a dying sinner. He could only give to his posterity what he possessed - a dying nature - and consequently none of the race ever attained perfect life. Thus Adam failed to become in the full, proper sense a father or life giver. It is because Christ will accomplish this work of life giving in which Adam failed, that he is called the "Everlasting Father."

But someone may inquire: Do you not teach that Jesus is a spirit being and of the divine plane of glory since his resurrection? Yes. Then, we are asked, would not any life imparted by Him be of the same plane as his own, that is, divine spirit? By no means. Jehovah is the life giver, or father of all creation; yet all creation is not possessed of the divine spirit plane. Jehovah has given Jesus also the power or authority to be a life-giver. (John 5:21) That he, as the representative of God, will use his power to raise both the just and the unjust, some to a heavenly spirit body and others to an earthly physical body, can be seen from the following scriptures. (John 6:39,40,44; 11:24; 12:47,48; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23,37-41) Thus in a broad sense Jesus is the Father of both the church and world.

However, nowhere is it recorded that the sons of God who are begotten of holy spirit in this age call Jesus "Father". Why not? Because the God of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3) regenerates, through application of the ransom sacrifice of his Son, the justified ones who are called out in this age as his own sons. (Romans 8:14,15; Galatians 4:5; Titus 3:4,5) Thus Jesus does not directly refer to them as 'his sons,' but rather as the sons that his God has given to him. (Hebrews 2:13) In view of this regeneration, Jesus thus tells his followers to pray "Our Father." (Luke 11:2) And also: "Glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16) "Be children of your Father." (Matthew 5:45) "Pray to your Father and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:6) "Your Father know what things you have need of.", etc., etc. Jesus also said: "I ascend to my Father and to your Father." -- John 20:17.

Again Jesus made a very emphatic statement of our dear and close relationship to him and to the Father when he said: "Whoever will do the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:50) "Call no man Father on earth for one is your father: God, and all of you are brothers." (Matthew 23:9) And Paul assures us that "both he who sanctifies (Jesus) and they who are sanctified (the church) are all one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them 'brothers.'" -- Hebrews 2:11.

But how are we to understand the words of Jesus at John 10:27,28: "My sheep hear my voice and I give them eternal life"? While it is Jesus who gives eternal life, Paul tells us that "God [Note that "God" used here has to be unipersonal, not tripersonal] has both raised up the Lord and will also raise up us by his own power." (1 Corinthians 6:14) Both statements are true, because the Father raises the dead through his Son, to whom the Father has given all this power, just as the unipersonal God of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3), by means of Jesus, judges the world. -- Matthew 28:18; John 5:21-30; Isaiah 96:13; 98:9; Acts 17:31.

The Psalmist writes prophetically of Messiah: "Instead of your fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth." (Psalm 45:17) Thus these faithful forefathers of Jesus become his children, whom he appoints as princes in all the earth. (Isaiah 32:1) The application of this is still future, when the forefathers of Jesus are raised from the dead back here on the earth, who then become "children" to Jesus. This fathership will be eternal, and thus the phrase "everlasting father" could be applied to Jesus as such.

Nevertheless, something else we should note about trinitarians and the term "everlasting father" in Isaiah 9:6. Trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father, although our oneness friends claim Jesus is his Father, that Jesus is the Son of Jesus, and that Jesus is the Spirit of Jesus the Father. Such would make him his own father. Trinitarians, however, would have us believe that there are three persons in one being called God, and that the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. In reality, if this title in Isaiah 9:6 should be applied to the Son as proof of the trinity doctrine, then Jesus would be the Father, and thus he would be his own Father. Therefore, by their own rules, this title, everlasting father, if applied to Jesus, could not be used to prove the trinity doctrine, for trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father.

Additionally, since the Bible clearly tells us that the Father is one God "of whom are all," this should settle the matter. Only the Father is the Supreme Being, the source of all. And thus Jesus refers to his God and Father as the "only" true God, and then excludes Jesus because Jesus was sent by this only true God. (John 17:1,3; John 3:16,17) Regardless, the title "everlasting father" could certainly not be construed to say that Jesus is the Father, therefore some trintarians try to apply the term "father" in Isaiah 9:6 as meaning something other than the God and Father of Jesus.

Jesus is the son of Jehovah, the anointed of Jehovah. He is not Jehovah- the God of Israel. Yawheh -- the God of Israel -- is the God and Father of Jesus. -- Psalm 2:7,8 [John 1:14; Hebrews 1:5]; Psalm 83:18 [Luke 1:32]; [John 5:43]; Isaiah 54:13 [John 6:45]; Matthew 5:48 [Leviticus 11:44; 19:2]; John 8:54 [Exodus 20:5; 23:19; Deuteronomy 4:31; 5:9; 6:4...and a host of other scriptures]; 2 Samuel 7:8,11,12,14 [Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; 23:5; Hebrews 1:5; Luke 1:32]; Deuteronomy 6:4 [John 17:1,3; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Acts 2:36]; Psalm 118:26 & Deuteronomy 18:19 [Matthew 21:9; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; 19:38; John 12:13; John 5:4; 12:49,50; 14:10,24; Acts 3:23].
See our study: "Jesus is Not Jehovah"

While we believe the name given the Son in Isaiah 9:6 describes the God and Father of Jesus, all the titles as given the most translations of Isaiah 9:6 could be given to Jesus by his God and Father, Jehovah, just as Jehovah gives to the Son the throne of David. (Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:32) Such names or titles applied to Jesus, however, does not mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into, such titles any thought that Jesus is the Most High Jehovah.

If applied to the Jesus, the title of everlasting father in Isaiah 9:6 would have to be understood as not the same title or office of Jehovah as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Jesus is never called the Father of the church, the spirit-begotten sons of God, although he does refer to his followers at times as sons (children), that is, as children belonging to God, or to the light of God which was in himself as the image of God, which light was also to be reflected in his followers. -- Matthew 5:14,45; 10:24; Luke 6:35; 16:8; John 8:12; 9:5; 11:9; 12:35,36; 13:33; 2 Corinthians 4:4,6.

Various Translations

One suggestion as to how this could be translated is: "Wonderful! Counselor of God! Mighty Man! My Father is Forever! Prince of Peace!" However, if we should render it with "El" separated from "GIBBOR" by a exclamation mark, it would be better rendered: "Wonderful Counselor of God! Mighty Man! Father of the ages! Prince of Peace!"

Here is another rendering of the verse: "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has called (Pele-Joez-el-gibbor-abia-ad-Sar-Shalom) "The Mighty God is planning grace, the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler." This would make the application to Jehovah who provides the ruler.

Some other translations:

For we have a child born to us, a son given to us,—and dominion rests on his shoulder, and he is named Wonder-Counselor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace. -- The Bible in Living English.

For a boy has been born for us, a son given to us to bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder; and he shall be called in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like, Father for all time, (a) Prince of peace.. -- New English Bible

For a child has been born to us, a son is given to us; he will bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder, and his title will be: Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. -- Revised English Bible;

Isaiah 9:6 - For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. -- Brenton Translation of the [Christianized] Septuagint (LXX)

Regardless of how one translates it, it still does not mean that the one being given by God is God Almighty himself, or that the one to whom God is giving the dominion is God Almighy himself, as we have already shown in the earlier paragraphs.

For links to some of our studies related to the above:

Mighty God

By Ronald Day at September 13, 2016

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Labels: Jesus as "Father", Jesus as "God", Mighty God

Isaiah 9:6 and the Divinity of Jesus

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Isaiah 9:6 and the Divinity of Jesus

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2010/05/deityisaiah9-6.html

Isaiah 9:6 and The Deity of Jesus

This is a continuation from our response to one who has sent us messages on youtube.
http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2010/05/jesus-is-not-most-high.html

Having received another message from this person, we are responding here to that message.

Our trinitarian neighbor claims to have "looked" at all our links and fails to see how any of the info disproves the deity of Christ and "whom he is."

We have no desire to disprove the deity of Christ, as we believe in the deity, the mightiness, of Christ, as that is shown in the Bible by usage of the Hebrew/Greek words for deity.

Isaiah 9:6 and the Alleged Trinity

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=82

Was Jesus Divine as a Human?

http://atonement.rlbible.com/?p=51

We certainly have no desire to disprove who Jesus is and who he claimed to be. Indeed, we do our uptmost to defend who Jesus is according to the scriptures, but in doing so we also see that we need to expose the false claims that are made of the Anointed of Yahweh.

However, we highly doubt that in taking a 'look' at the links would afford one the effort needed to thoroughly examine material presented on the links, not unless such a person has extraordinary speed reading and comprehension capabilities; a diligent examining of all the scriptures presented has to take a lot of time. (Acts 17:2) One has to diligently seek the wisdom as one might seek after silver, or a hidden treasure. (Proverbs 2:1-5) This is especially true now that the truth has been corrupted with the deceptions of foretold apostasy. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) Additionally, one has to be willing to accept what God's spirit reveals in the scriptures, without having a desire to use to the spirit of human imagination so as to bend what is stated to conform the preconcieved dogma that has to be added to scripture. Diligent prayer is thus also required. The short time in which you have responded would hardly give one time to examine the links in depth. For most people, at least a week or even several weeks would probably be needed to do a thorough examination, actually absorbing what is being said while examining scriptures to see if what is said is true. One has to also to be willing "meditate" on the Word, submitting to what God, through His holy spirit, has revealed in the scriptures regardless of how much might contradict preconceived thoughts, in order to understand. -- Psalm 119:148; 2 Timothy 2:15.

Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=45

On the other hand, if you just "look" at what has been written through tainted spectacles of added-on trinitarian dogma, you will indeed continue to be blinded to the truth on this. The tainted trintarian spectacles blinds one to what the scriptures are saying, since it would read "trinity" into many scriptures whereas in reality nothing is stated about a triune god at all in those verses. God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. — Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10.

Part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a "falling away" from the truth of God’s Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching "another Jesus"; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great "Man of Sin", or more correctly "Insubordinate Man," "Lawless Man", or "Illegal Man", a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God’s Word since their revelation was allegedly of God’s Spirit, and these revelations were claimed, in effect, to add more to the faith that scriptures say had once delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted by means of the spirit of human imagination and assumptions so as to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament.
Understanding Kingdom Mysteries
http://binfo.rlbible.com/?p=380

General Comments About Jesus and His God
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?page_id=9

And yet, many, even though they have access to the holy spirit as sons of God, remain as babes in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:1) since they are still to a large extent carnal in their thinking abilities. This can be true whether one believes or does not believe in the added-on trinitarian dogma, but that added-on dogma is probably one of the greatest hinderances that Satan has put forth to keep God's people from appreciating the deeper truths of the Bible, such as the "ransom for all."

The Ransom for All
http://studies.reslight.net/?p=27
A Tree Planted by Rivers of Waters

http://living.reslight.net/?p=37

Indeed, unless God wishes one to understand, or to state it better, if God does not wish one to have an appreciable understanding, then there is nothing we can do to help that person understand until God would allow that person to so understand, except to try to lead such a person into condition wherein God would make him receptive. Thus, the truth is, to a large extent, still a mystery to those Christians who have not developed in the knowledge of the truth.
Understanding Kingdom Mysteries

http://atonement.rlbible.com/?p=126

Nor is it necessary for us to try to "disprove" the trinity doctrine. None of the Bible writers wrote in such a manner so as have any reason to say: "Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who appeared to Moses," or to say: "There is no trinity doctrine, such is a false teaching." And even if they had said such a thing, trinitarians who tenaciously wish to hold to that dogma could still find a way to use their spirit of human imagination so as to explain it away. If Paul had written, for example, "Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we are sure that they could imagine, assume and add to that statement something like: Paul was saying that Jesus was not the first person of the trinity; he was not denying that Jesus is the second person of the trinity, and thus it is as the second person of the trinity that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. And if Paul had written, there is no trinity, it could be interpreted to mean that Paul was only referring to the triads of heathen religion, not to the humanly exalted doctrine of man that has been added to, and read into, the Bible. We can and have shown that the trinity dogma is not found in the Bible, and we can and have shown that we have no reason to add such dogma to the scriptures, since the scriptures are totally in harmony without adding such an idea. Such a doctrine is nowhere expressed in the Bible; it does indeed have to imagined beyond what is actually written, assumptions have to formulated, and those assumptons have added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to alleged "clearly" prove what has been assumed.

We have also shown how adding such a doctrine into the Bible diminishes the only true God as well as the role Jesus had in his sacrifice for sin. We have also shown how adding such a doctrine into the Bible would justify sin in the flesh, rather do what Paul stated Jesus did, that is, Jesus condemned sinned in the flesh.
How God's Son Condemned Sin the Flesh

http://atonement.rlbible.com/?p=51

We have also shown how adding the trinitarian dogma that Jesus is still a man would directly deny the purpose for which Jesus had come in the flesh, that is, to sacrifice that flesh once for all time as an offering for sin.

Jesus Died a Human Being, Raised a Spirit Being
http://atonement.rlbible.com/?p=5

Raised in the Spirit

http://life.rlbible.com/?p=430

Is Jesus Still a Little Lower Than the Angels?

http://atonement.reslight.net/?p=195

Trinitarian False Definition of a Christian
http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2010/05/trinitarian-false-definition-of.html

It is being claimed that all we have are other Bible verses which we do not understand and have clearly misrepresented. It is claimed that we are trying to "proof text" a theory with all those other verses as a means to turn Isaiah 9:6 into what we want it to be. Our trinitarian neighbor does not tell us how we have misrepresented the scriptures. We do agree that the Isaiah 9:6 is very specific in what it says, and the text is clear on whom the divine child's identity is.

Without knowing in what way our trinitarian correspondent believes we have misrepresented the other scriptures, we have not much to respond to. We suspect, however, that what is actually meant is that we do not join in with the trinitarian spirit of human imagination, so as to read those scriptures through the taint of trinitarian dogma, thereby adding trinitarian assumptions to, and reading those assumptions into, the scriptures.

Isaiah 9:6 is indeed very clear in what it says, although we believe most translations misrepresent what it says, since they would present the name, not as a "name", but as a series of "names." By this many authors and commentators on the Bible have referred to Isaiah 9:6 as being "names" of the Messiah, thereby changing the singular name to a plural "names." The scripture itself, however does indeed most clearly say 'name' -- not 'names.' Trinitarians, using the great spirit of human imagination, formulate assumptions, and then add to those assumptions to scriptures, so as read those assumptions into, what is stated in the translations. However, even with the common rendering Isaiah 9:6 in contradiction to what the verse says, that is, when what is stated as a singular name in verse is reinterpreted to mean a series names rather one singular name, there is still nothing at all in the verse about three persons in one God, or that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. These thoughts still have to be imagined, assumptions formulated on what is imagined, and those assumptions have to be added to, and read into, what is stated.

Isaiah 9:6 does indeed "clearly" identify the son as given by Yahweh of Hosts of Isaiah 9:7. And yes, this does indeed agree with the entire rest of the Bible. Isaiah 9:6 does indeed clearly say "name", not names. And it is in harmony with the rest of the scriptures that the name by which he should be called would glorify his unipersonal God and Father. -- Ephesians 1:3,17; Philippians 2:11; 1 Peter 1:3.

And it still remains a fact that not once from Genesis to Revelation is the God spoken of in Exodus 3:14,15 presented as more than one person. He is consistently spoken of as one person. Additionally, not once is the one sent by this God identified as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The scriptures consistently distinguish between the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the one sent by Him.
Google search Restoration Light site for "Unipersonal God"
(some links may give comments by others, as in the RL forums; I do not necessarily agree with comments given by others.)

It is claimed that we have nothing to prove otherwise. Of course, it is not our desire to prove that Isaiah 9:6 says anything otherwise than what it does say..

On the other hand, we have indeed proved overwhelmingly that there is nothing in Isaiah 9:6 that identifies Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; there mostly definitely is nothing there about God existing as three persons. All such thoughts have come from the spirit of human imagination beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and those thoughts formulated into dogmatic assumptions, which assumptions then have to added to, and read into, what is written. We certainly have no desire to so misrepresent Isaiah 9:6 as supporting such ideas which are not there.

No Trinity in Isaiah 9:6
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html

Father of Eternity

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=78

Isaiah 9:6 - Not a Series of Names

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=1091

The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=26

The Singular Name of the Son Given

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=537

Isaiah 9:6 and the Alleged Trinity

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=82

The Singular Name
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/

The statement is made that there is only "one" God, and we are asked: "well then you have created two Gods now haven't you?" And then it is claimed that "EL" is always used for "GOD" and NEVER EVER refers to man.

In reality the Bible does indeed use the Hebrew EL not only of man, but also of angels and things. If our trinitarian correspondent had studied the material on links provided, he would have known this.

Yes, there is indeed only one true God; there is only one who is innately the Might of Univere, only one who is the Supreme Being. And the Bible directly tells who that one God is. Aside from him there is no might (EL), since he is the source of all might and power. (Psalm 62:11; Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5,21; Hosea 13:4; John 19:11; Romans 13:1) Jesus identified his unipersonal God and Father as that one true God. (John 10:29; 17:1,3) Jesus called upon his God, not as three persons, but as one person, his God and Father. When he said "My God", was he speaking of a triune "God?" (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Hebrews 5:7) Likewise, when the scripture speaks of the God of Jesus, are they speaking of one person, or three persons? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus." -- Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

The God -- Supreme Being -- of Jesus

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=263

Nevertheless, Jesus is not the only true God, the Might of the Universe, the only who is that Might innately. John 17:3 should settle all dispute on that, but the trinitarian spirit of human imagination would not have it so. Having formed a god -- not with their literal hands -- but out of the human hands of their spirit of imagination, they seem to tenaciously continue to add more and more and more to the scriptures so as to justify their idol. There is indeed only one true God, one who possesses might innately, and indeed, who is the source of absolutely all might in the universe. The Bible does indeed, however, speak of others who are "god" - mighty ones - in a different sense, that of having received special might from the source of all might. Jesus is included as such.

That forms of the words EL and THEOS are used in an exclusive manner of the God and Father of Jesus as the only true God does not negate the usage of those words as applied in a sense that does not mean Supreme Being. And the Bible does indeed actually use those words in such a manner. Strong classifies forms of the Hebrew word "EL" under the numbers 410, 426, 430, although under each of these numbers there may actually be many other forms in the Hebrew scriptures than the generalization given.
http://studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=410
http://studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=426
http://studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=430

At any rate, as we have shown several times on the websites, forms of EL, although most often used in the Bible to the designate the only Most High, are indeed used of men, angels as well as things. It is not we creating two "Gods", two Supreme Beings (the trinitarians have, in effect, created three Supreme Persons, three supreme sentient beings, each of which is claimed to have their own separate and distinct omniscience, but yet which are all the same omniscience). We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty -- applied to a man); Genesis 30:8 (mighty -- applied to a man); Genesis 31:29 (power - applied to a man's strength -- power -- of hand); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might -- applied to the strength, power in the hand of the children of Israel); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great - applied to the trembling); Nehemiah 5:5 (power -- referring to man's power); Psalm 8:5 (angels - see Hebrews 2:7); Psalm 36:6 (great -- of God's judgments); Psalm 82:1 (mighty - of the sons of the Most High, men -- Psalm 82:6); Proverbs 3:27 (power - in a man's hand); Psalm 29:1 (mighty -- probably applied to angels, although it could be applied to man); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong applied to men); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding -- applied to a city). If one were to substitute "false god" in these verses, we would have some absurd statements. Likewise, in many of the verses, one could not insert Supreme Being without some very odd results. Additionally, we find that forms of EL are applied to Pharoah (Exodus 7:1 -- rendered as "a god" in the KJV) and also to Aaron (Exodus 4:16). Furthermore, forms of EL are applied to the angels, as previously shown: Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels). Additionally, forms of EL are applied to the judges of Israel (as a body): Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 (See Acts 23:5). And, a form of EL is applied to The wicked spirit that impersonated Samuel. (1 Samuel 28:13) A form of EL is applied to Moses in Exodus 7:1, where the KJV renders it as "a god." This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god", and they are used not only of the Supreme Being, but also of men, angels and things.

It is forms of EL that are translated into the Greek by forms of the word THEOS. Thus, Jesus speaks of the sons of the Most High of Psalm 82, where forms of el are used, which is rendered from the Koine Greek in most translations as "gods", from a plural form of the Greek THEOS, and thus Jesus applies this word to men, the sons of the Most High who had received the Logos (Jesus). -- John 1:12; 10:34,35.
Who Are the Gods?

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=245
Google Search of the Restoration Light Site for El Theos
(some links may contain material written by others, as in the forums; I do not necessarily agree with the comments or conclusions written by others)

Thus, in the very, very few instances where a form of EL or THEOS is actually applied to Jesus in the Bible, a close examination reveals that it is not being applied in the same sense as it is applied to the Most High, but rather in the general sense of mightiness, as in John 1:1, the Word was mighty (or, a mighty one).

By Ronald Day at May 31, 2010

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Labels: Jesus as "God", Mighty God, trinity doctrine

Isaiah 9:6

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Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6,7 – The Singular Name

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/

Isaiah 9:6,7

Isaiah 9:5 – For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez- el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; — JPS translation.

The above corresponds to Isaiah 9:6 in most Protestant translations.

Isaiah 9:7 – Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. — American Standard Version

This scripture speaks of a singular “name” that the promised Messiah was be called by. Usually, a name such as this is read as a sentence, not a series of “names” (plural), as many often read into Isaiah 9:6. Isaiah 9:6,7 appeared to be referred to in Luke 1:32:

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. [Jehovah] God will give to him the throne of his father, David,

Thus, the “son” that is given to Israel is the Son of the only Most High, Jehovah. (Genesis 14:22; 2 Samuel 22:14; Psalm 7:17; 18:13; 47:2; 83:18; 97:9; John 17:3) There is no reason to add to and read into the scriptures that the son of Jehovah is Jehovah of whom he is the son.

We do not think, however, that the name, being singular, should not be understood as depicting a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of Jehovah, and placing such a name upon a human or thing does not designate the human or thing as being Jehovah. Thus, for example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), which could be read as a series of titles: “God, The God, Israel,” we should understand that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”

The name in Isaiah 9:6 should also be understood similarly, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as “names.” Therefore, it is more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. (Deuternomy 18:15-19) Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Jehovah, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

Nevertheless, if EL GIBBOR should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, the context as well as Luke 1:32 should let us know that the expression “el gibbor” would not signify the son as being Jehovah, the only Most High. Therefore, we should determine the meaning el gibbor as it would apply to the one given by Jehovah, and not automatically assume that it means that Jesus is Jehovah. In keeping with the context, then it should be understood corresponding to the way the term is used in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural (probably as a plural intensive) is used. We do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as “Mighty God(s)”, but it is usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as “The strong among the mighty.”

Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as “mighty god” is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Jehovah (Isaiah 61:1), who is therefore not Jehovah, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, “a strong one among the mighty.”

Additionally, if the title “everlasting father,” is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be seen in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the “last Adam,” who “became the life-giving spirit,” who, in effect, takes Adam’s place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus “everlasting father.”

Praise Jehovah! Give thanks to Jehovah, for He is good; for His mercy endures forever. (Psalm 106:1, Green’s Literal translation) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:30, King James Version)

See our Mighty God studies

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Isaiah 9:6,7 – The Singular Name

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/

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Isaiah 42:8 - Does God Share His Glory as Most High With Jesus? (2016-10-23)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/10/shareglory.html

Isaiah 42:8 - Does God Share His Glory as Most High With Jesus?

I am Jehovah; that is My name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images. -- Isaiah 42:8 - Green's Literal.

For My sake, for My sake, I will act; for how is it defiled? And I will not give My glory to another. -- Isaiah 48:11, Green's Literal.

Many often point to these scriptures as proof that Jesus is Jehovah, with the claim that Jesus has the glory of Jehovah, therefore he is Jehovah. But is such reasoning correct?

The scriptures show that in giving a glorious position to Jesus that Jehovah does not abdicate his glorious position for anyone, not even Jesus, nor does Jesus or anyone else share in the glory of the unique position of Most High over the universe. (1 Corinthians 15:27) In contrast, Jesus invites the saints to share his glory in joint-heirship. (See Romans 6:3-6; 8:17, 18; Col. 3:4; 1 John 3:2) Rather than finding the position of glory that Jehovah gives to Jesus as proof that Jesus is Jehovah, it rather proves that Jesus is not Jehovah.

The scripture in John 17:5 is usually presented as proof that Jesus had the same glorious position as his Father before coming to the earth. However, is that what Jesus said? "Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed." Read it again. No, there is nothing here about Jesus having the same or equal glory to the Father before coming to the earth. Rather, he does mention a glory he enjoyed when he was with his father before the world existed. He asks of the only true God that this glory be returned to him, which shows that (1) he did not have that glory while was in days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7); (2) the Father of Jesus is the source of the glory, which harmonizes with what Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

We need to point out that the word glory carries various shades of meaning, and even the expression "glory of God" as shared with others does not necessarily mean equivalency with God. God does share his glory with creation in harmony with him in the sense of being in his likeness and image -- mankind fell short pf this glory when Adam sinned (Psalm 8:5; Romans 3:23; 5:12-19); yet there is nothing in the scriptures that says that Jesus shares God's exclusive glory as far as His Supremacy as the only Most High.

If one will just reason a little on John 17:5, we will see that what Jesus says here in no way could mean that Jesus is Jehovah, or that he is part of trinity. Whatever is meant by "glory" here, it should be apparent that Jesus did not possess this glory at the time that he spoke this prayer. If he possessed it at the time, then why did he need to ask for it to be restored to him? Yet our trinitarian neighbors would have us believe that Jesus held two levels of glory at once, that of God Almighty and that of a perfect human. This scripture contradicts that, for at the time Jesus said this, Jesus shows that he did not have the level of glory that he had before coming to the earth.

This brings up the different levels of glory. What would such a glory be that he did not have it at the time? The holy spirit reveals the answer to through Paul, when Paul speaks of two different kinds of glory in reference to the what kind of body the saints are raised with, one heavenly, spiritual, the other earthly, physical. (1 Corinthians 15:35-48) In general, Paul, speaking of the bodies we receive in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:35-38), mentions that there are two major classifications of bodies: heavenly and earthly. (1 Corinthians 15:40) And in the heavenly bodies, there are different degrees of glory, which he likens to the glory of the sun, moon and stars. (1 Corinthians 15:41) When may not know for sure that Paul had in mind in any application of the various degrees of glory that he mentions, such as the glory of the sun, moon, and each star differing in glory. More than likely, he is just illustrating that heavenly beings have bodies of differing glories, not that we should look for an application of each thing mentioned as applied to the bodies of spirit beings. Nevertheless, we could let the Sun represent the glorious body of Jehovah, and the moon to represent the glory of Jesus and his joint-heirs, and the stars to represent the glory of the angels, and possibly the seraphs and cherbus (assuming that these are indeed orders of spirit beings). Using this application, we can see that three shades of glory in the heavenly realm. But then he says that the stars also differ from each other in glory, showing that there are different levels of glory amongst these other spirit beings.

Nevertheless, the earthly "glory of God" was enjoyed by the first man, before he sinned. Adam was not created with sin, so he did not fall short of this glory, not until he actually sinned. (Romans 3:23) The scriptures tell us that he was "crowned with glory." (Psalm 8:5) After sin entered the picture, all men condemned in Adam fall short of this glory (Romans 3:23) -- except that it was typically counted to them by faith -- until Jesus came. The whole human race was condemned in the sin of Adam, thus all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 5:15-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) But, while this is called "glory of God", it is glory of a human body, on the earthly plane of existence.

Then when Jesus left the glory he had with his Father, Paul says that Jesus divested himself, emptied himself, of the form of theos [might, power] that he had before coming to the earth, and took on the form of a bond-servant in the likeness of mankind, who was condemned in Adam.(Philippians 2:6,7; Romans 5:16,18; 8:3) Not that Jesus was sinful like the rest of mankind, but that he suffered like the rest of mankind, thus taking the condemnation of Adam [and the human race through Adam] upon himself that justice may be satisfied. -- Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; 1 John 2:2.

God did impregnate Mary by means of Hist holy spirit with the life of his Son, who willingly left the glory he had with his God in order to take on the human glory that was originally given to Adam, but which was lost due to sin. -- John 17:5; Psalm 8:5; Romans 3:23; 5:12-19; Hebrews 2:9.

Jesus' human body, however, was not prepared in the usual way, since the scriptures say that God prepared the body of Jesus, crowned with glory, so that he could be offered up in sacrifice. (Hebrews 2:9; 10:5,10) Jesus, therefore. did not share in the condemnation that was upon Adam, so that he did not fall short of the glory of God. He remained sinless even under severe trial, by which he condemned sin in the flesh.

Having been offered up in sacrifice, Jesus is no longer in the days of his flesh -- with the human glory (Hebrews 5:7), but has been highly exalted far above the angels, he "became a life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:45), possessing not the earthly glory, but the heavenly glory.

In Matthew 16:27, Jesus refers to the Son of man coming "in the glory of his Father". (See also Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26) Many of our trinitarian neighbors would like for us to believe that he is Jehovah, since he comes in the glory of his Father. However, if taken in this manner, the expression would tend to make Jesus his own Father, something which trinitarians disclaim. However, like Jesus came in the name of Jehovah, his Father, coming in the glory of Jehovah his Father does not make him to be Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 18:18,19; Matthew 21:9; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; 19:38; John 5:43; 12:13; Please see 1 Samuel 25:9; Ezra 5:1; Esther 2:22; Micah 4:5; Jeremiah 20:9; 26:20; 44:16; Acts 4:18; 5:40; 9:27,28; James 5:10 for examples of others who spoke in the name of someone else.

We add here that the Bible does indicate that Adam had the glory of God also. This is implied in Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." Additionally, we read in 1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of the man." This also implies that the perfect man does have the glory of God. This glory, however, is on the earthly plane, not the glory of a heavenly body. (1 Corinthians 15:40) It is this glory that is referred to in Psalm 8:5: "For you have made him [man] a little lower than God, And crowned him with glory and honor." The first man, Adam, before he sinned, has this glory. Since Adam sinned, mankind has ever since fallen short of this glory. This is why in Hebrews 2:7 Paul tells us that mankind has not yet received the dominion as was originally given to man. (Genesis 1:28) However, Paul does tell us that we see that Jesus did come, being crowned with human glory, a little lower than the angels, that he might taste death for all. (Hebrews 2:9; see 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Romans 5:15-19) Nevertheless, in John 17:5, Jesus is praying for a glory that he once had, but which he did not then possess. Jesus did not have two bodily glories while he was in the days of his flesh. (Hebrews 5:7) Thus, while Jesus was was in the days of his flesh, he did not have the glory he had when he was with his Father before the world existed, but he did have the sinless glory of God in a human body. -- 1 Corinthians 15:40.

We should also note that Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as the "Most High", and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is ALWAYS presented as one person, and never as more than one person.

We, therefore, see nothing in the argument that, in John 17:5, Jesus claimed to share the glorious position that only belongs to Jehovah. There is no reason from any of the scriptures presented to assume and add to the scriptures the trinitarian story about three persons all who are one God, or that Jesus is Jehovah.

By Ronald Day at October 23, 2016

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Isaiah 43:10 - Before Jehovah There Was No God Formed (2017-04-13)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/beforejeh.html

Isaiah 9:6,7 – The Singular Name

Isaiah 42:8 - Does God Share His Glory as Most High With Jesus? (2016-10-23)

Isaiah 43:10 - Before Jehovah There Was No God Formed (2017-04-13)

Isaiah 43:10 - Only Jehovah Saves (2017-05-16)

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Isaiah 43:10 - Only Jehovah Saves (2017-05-16)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/05/isa4310.html

Isaiah 43:11 - Only Jehovah Saves

Isaiah 43:11 - I, I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me. -- Green's Literal.

It is being claimed that since only Jehovah saves, then, since it is necessary to know Jesus for salvation (John 17:3), that Jesus is by definition Jehovah.

The scripture says that there is no salvation apart from -- aside from -- Jehovah. (Isaiah 43:11; Hosea 13:14) This does not mean that Jehovah could not send others as saviors who would act in his behalf, except that those he sent must be Jehovah. The scriptures state that Jehovah sent more than one savior to Israel. (Nehemiah 9:27) The Hebrew word for "savior" is often transliterated as "Yasha'". This word is always in verb form in Biblical Hebrew and it is in verb form as used in Isaiah 43:11, although most translations render it in English as though it is a noun. This word, however, is used of many different people in the Old Testament. It is used of Moses in Exodus 2:17; does mean that Moses is Jehovah?

Here are some instances in which this word is used:

{Judges 2:16} Jehovah raised up judges, who saved [Yasha'] them out of the hand of those who despoiled them.

Were these judges all "Jehovah"?

The scripture says that Jehovah was with those judges that he raised up for Israel:

{Judges 3:9} When the children of Israel cried to Jehovah, Jehovah raised up a savior to the children of Israel, who saved them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

What is said here concerning Othniel as being savior is similar to what the Bible says concerning Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 10:40; Mark 9:37; Luke 4:18; 9:48; 10:16; John 4:34; 5:23,24,30,36,37,38; 6:29,38,39,44,57; 17:1,3,16,18,28,29,33; 8:16,18,26,29; Acts 3:13-26; 1 John 4:10,14) According to the reasoning given, only Jehovah can be savior, and if one is consistent, Othniel must also be Jehovah.

Another savior that Jehovah sent:

{Judges 3:15} But when the children of Israel cried to Jehovah, Jehovah raised them up a savior [Yasha'], Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a man left-handed. The children of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab.

No one thinks that because Jehovah sent Ehud as a savior, that Ehud must be Jehovah. Likewise, there is no reason to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scriptures that Jesus must be Jehovah because Jehovah sent Jesus to save us, which Jesus did by the offering of his humanity in sacrifice to the only true God.

{Judges 3:31} After him was Shamgar the son of Anath, who struck of the Philistines six hundred men with an oxgoad: and he also saved [Yasha'] Israel.

Shamgar saved Israel. Should we assume that Shamgar must be Jehovah, because only Jehovah saves Israel? Obviously, it was indeed Jehovah who was the source of the salvation; Shamgar was but the instrument that Jehovah used. Likewise, Jehovah is the source of the salvation that comes through His Son; this does not mean that we need to add to the scriptures that Jesus is Jehovah, since, as assumed, only Jehovah saves.

{Judges 6:14} Jehovah looked at him, and said, "Go in this your might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent you?"

Here Jehovah was speaking to Gideon, and Jehovah told Gideon to "save Israel from the hand of Midian". And he adds "Have not I sent you?" Isn't this similar to Jesus, for the Lord Jehovah sent Jesus to save the world? If Jehovah's sending Jesus as savior means that Jesus is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves, we should also consider Gideon to be Jehovah also.

{Judges 6:36} Gideon said to God, "If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have spoken,
{Judges 6:37} behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there be dew on the fleece only, and it be dry on all the ground, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have spoken."

Here Gideon asks for a sign that he save Israel, but he recognized this as not being of himself, but that Jehovah was to do this by -- through -- the hand of Gideon. Likewise, we read that God, through, by means of, Jesus, reconciled us to Himself [not to Jesus]. -- Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.
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{Judges 10:1} After Abimelech there arose to save [Yasha'] Israel Tola the son of Puah, the son of Dodo, a man of Issachar; and he lived in Shamir in the hill country of Ephraim.

Again, no one considers Tola to be Jehovah; likewise, there is no reaon to imagine and assume that Jesus is Jehovah.

{Judges 13:5} for, behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb: and he shall begin to save [Yasha'] Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Here, an angel of Jehovah tells Manoah of Samson, and stated that Samson was to begin save Israel.

Again, Samson was a not savior apart from, besides, Jehovah, for it was Jehovah who is behind Samson; likewise, in sending His Son to save the world, Jesus is not savior apart from, besides, Jehovah, for it is Jehovah who sent Jesus to save the world. -- Isaiah 61:1,2; John 17:1,3; 1 John 4:14.

{1 Samuel 9:16} "Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man out of the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over my people Israel; and he shall save [Yasha'] my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked on my people, because their cry has come to me."

Here Jehovah is speaking of Saul, who later proved unfaithful. Nevertheless, Jehovah said that Saul was to save Israel. Of course, Saul, as being savior of Israel was not such a savior besides Jehovah, for it was Jehovah who sent Saul as savior.

{1 Samuel 23:2} Therefore David asked Jehovah, saying, "Should I go and strike these Philistines?" Jehovah said to David, "Go strike the Philistines, and save Keilah."

{1 Samuel 23:4} Then David inquired of Jehovah yet again. Jehovah answered him, and said, "Arise, go down to Keilah; for I will deliver [Yahsha'] the Philistines into your hand."

{1 Samuel 23:5} David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their livestock, and killed them with a great slaughter. So David saved [Yasha'] the inhabitants of Keilah.

Here Jehovah tells David to "save Keilah", a city in the land of Israel, which David did. David was not to be a savior besides Jehovah, nor was Jesus the savior of the world besides Jehovah. It was Jehovah who performed this deliverance through David. Likewise, it is Jehovah who saves the world through His son.

{2 Kings 13:5} Jehovah gave Israel a savior [Yasha'], so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians; and the children of Israel lived in their tents as before.

This is evidently referring to Joash. It was Jehovah who gave this savior to Israel -- this does not mean that we need imagine and assume that this savior is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves; likewise, it is Jehovah who gave his son as savior of the world, and likewise, we have no reason to imagine and assume that Jesus is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves. -- John 3:16,17; 1 John 5:11.

{Judges 2:18} When Jehovah raised them up judges, then Jehovah was with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it grieved Jehovah because of their groaning by reason of those who oppressed them and troubled them.

The scripture above tells us that Jehovah was "with" those judges whom he "raised up" to save Israel. Likewise, the scripture says that Jehovah, the only true God who had raised up Jesus as the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26), was "with" Jesus.

{John 8:29} He [the only true God of Isaiah 61:1 and John 17:3] who sent me is with me.

{John 16:32} Behold, the time is coming, yes, and has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father [the only true God of Isaiah 61:1 and John 17:3] is with me.

{Acts 10:38} even Jesus of Nazareth, how God [the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1] anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God [the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1] was with him.

It is being claimed that if Jesus is not Jehovah, then a person could be saved by knowing only the Father, but to know the Father only is incomplete.

The only true God, in order to save us, did indeed need a sinless human being to be the means of that salvation, for only by such means could the only true God remain just, while yet justifying the sinner. To settle the matter of justice, justice required a sinless human being to offset the condemnation through Adam. (Romans 3:26; 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) There is nothing at all in this that would require that Jesus had to be Jehovah.

Some other scriptures related to this:

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. -- Jude 1:25, World English.

Jehovah is Savior, "through Jesus Christ".

To us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6, World English.

The word "things" is added by translators. All is from the only true God (John 17:1,3), through the one whom the only true God has made Lord and Christ. -- Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1,2; Acts 2:36.

See:
The Basis of Atonement
No Savior Besides Jehovah
The Price of Redemption -- God or Man?
1 Peter 3:18, Romans 8:8,9 and Jesus' Sacrifice for Sin

Bible Hub's Hebrew Analysis of Hebrews 43:11

By Ronald Day at May 16, 2017

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Isaiah 44:24

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/is-44-24/

Isaiah 44:24 – Jehovah was Alone

Posted on September 10, 2008 | 5 Comments

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone [Hebrew transliteration, bad, Strong’s Hebrew #905]; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; King James Version.

Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?); — World English Bible.

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread forth the earth by myself. — Darby translation.

Isaiah 44:24 is often referred as proof that Jesus is Jehovah, since Jehovah says that he was alone when He spread out the heavens and the earth. It is generally assumed that Isaiah 44:24 is speaking of the same creation as spoken of in Genesis 1:1, John 1:3,10, and Colossians 1:16. According to this reasoning, John 1:3,10; 17:5; and Colossians 1:16 prove that Jesus was there at creation, and thus, since Jehovah says He was alone, then Jesus is Jehovah.

However, when God created the heavens and earth that are spoken of in Genesis 1:1, God was not alone. We know this because Job 38:4-7 tells us that the “sons of God,” described figuratively as “morning stars,” were also present at this creation. So the invisible spirit sons of God were present with God at the creation described in first two chapters of Genesis. (Jesus is described as the bright and morning star. — Revelation 22:16.

The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 44:24, which is rendered “alone” by most translations, is usually transliterated as bad. (Strong’s Hebrew #905) This word is often used in relative terms, as compared to who/what is being spoken of in comparison, and thus does not necessarily mean that Yahweh was totally alone without his son at the creation spoken of in Isaiah 44:24. This Hebrew word, “bad,’ is used of Adam in Genesis 2:18. Of course, we know that Adam was not totally alone, for he had God with whom he could speak; likewise, Adam had the trees of the garden and the animal creation with him; however, as regards a mate, he was alone. (Genesis 2:20) When Jacob said to Reuben concerning taking Benjamin to Egypt: “My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone [Strong’s #905].” (Genesis 44:28; 44:20) Jacob did not mean that Benjamin was totally alone, but in reference to what he was speaking, his sons by Rachel, whom he loved. (Genesis 29:18,30; 35:24) Jacob did not know that Joseph was still alive, and thought him to be dead. These references illustrate how the Hebrew word “bad” is used in relative terms, depending on context.

In the context of Isaiah 44:24, the reference is to Israel (Jacob), and the idol gods that the people of Israel were creating by their hands and bowing down to. None of the people of Israel were with Jehovah when he created the heavens and earth; nor were any of those idol-gods (made with human hands) with Jehovah. In this comparison, Jehovah alone did the creating, none of the people of Israel nor their man-made gods were with Jehovah. If this creation included what is spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2, then Jehovah alone did this creating by means of his son, as we read in John 1:3,10 and Colossians 1:16, since none of the people, nor any of their idol-gods were there. Although Jehovah created through his son, Jehovah alone is the Creator. The scriptures abound with cases where Jehovah uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force. — Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc

Some have referred to Jesus’ usage of alone, as related to his not being alone, because his Father was with him. The Greek word that corresponds to the Hebrew word bad is monos. As related to Jesus’ usage of monos, here is what Jesus said:

Even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for I am not alone (monos, Strong’s #3441), but I am with the Father who sent me. — John 8:16.

He who sent me is with me. The Father hasn’t left me alone (monos), for I always do the things that are pleasing to him. — John 8:29.

Behold, the time comes, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone (monos), because the Father is with me. — John 16:32.

In each instance, Jesus is not speaking of being totally “alone,” with absolutely no one else or anything else around him, but he is speaking of “alone” as related to what he is speaking of. In John 8:16, it is obvious that Jesus is not speaking of being without anyone else or anything at all around him, but he is speaking of being alone in the action of judging. Likewise, in John 8:29 and 16:32, Jesus does not use the word “monos” indicate absolute aloneness, in which there would be no one else or nothing else in existence. He was not alone in his works, because his Father was with him. Thus, it appears that, like the Hebrew word “bad”, the Greek word “monos” is used relative to what is being spoken of in context.

Jesus is never called “creator” in the Bible; yet he is the means by which Jehovah carried out his creation. In Mark 10:6, Jesus says of God (Jehovah — whom he sits at the right hand of — Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22) is the maker in creation: “But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.” Thus only Yahweh is properly called the “Creator”. — Isaiah 40:28.

Additionally, “heavens and earth” in the Bible do not always refer to same thing. The Hebrew word for “earth” is usually transliterated as ‘erets. (Strong’s Hebrew #776) The Greek word is usually transliterated as Ge. (Strong’s Greek #1093) Both of these words can refer to the planet earth (Genesis 1:2), the inhabitants of the planet, a certain district of land (country, territory, tribal territory), the inhabitants of a certain district of land (Genesis 6:1; 11:1; 23:15; Matthew 23:35), the ground (Genesis 33:3), as well as the arrangement of affairs upon the earth related to certain time periods. (Genesis 6:13; 2 Peter 3:5,6,7,10,13)
http://studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0776
http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1093

Likewise, the words for “heaven(s)” (Hebrew, Shamayim, Strong’s #8064; Greek, Ouranos) can refer to the starry heavens (whether speaking literal or figuratively: Psalm 8:3; Ezekiel 32:7; Joel 2:10); the things of the atmosphere as seen from the surface of the earth (clouds, birds, etc.: 1 Kings 21:24; Deuteronomy 11:11; Psalm 147:8; Acts 14:17), the unseen spiritual realm where God and the angels dwell (Psalm 11:4; 14:2; Matthew 18:10), and figuratively as the ruling elements of an earth pertaining to a certain time period (whether seen or unseen). — 2 Corinthians 12:2; 2 Peter 3:5,6,7,10,13.

In Genesis 1:10, the “earth” being spoken of as being created is not the planet itself, but rather the “dry land” that God caused to appear on the planet. The planet earth already “was” (Genesis 1:2) before the “beginning” spoken of in Genesis 1:1. The “beginning” of Genesis 1:1 (as well as John 1:1) refers to the six days of creation (Exodus 16:26; 20:11) that is described in the first two chapters of Genesis. The heavens and earth that were created in the six days, the “beginning”, therefore refers to the arrangement of things on the planet itself, and as seen in the sky (heaven) above from the planet’s surface, not the physical creation of the planet, the stars, the moon.

Therefore, it seems probable that Isaiah 44:24 is referring to the physical universe itself, not of the beginning that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1, or the “beginning” spoken of in Matthew 19:4,8; 24:21; Mark 10:6; 13:19; John 1:1,2; 8:44; Hebrews 3:14 . It is certainly not referring to the heavens where God’s throne is, and in which the angels now see the face of God.

Some translations render Isaiah 44:24 in the present tense; others render it in the past tense. We believe that verse is speaking of the original creation of the physical universe, sometimes called the “big bang.” The original creation of the physical universe could be described as a “big bang,” in which the creation of the physical heavens were hurled into being and, according to the “big bang” theory is continuing to expand to this day. Of course, included in that creation was what we now call the planet “earth.” If this is the correct application of Isaiah 44:24, then it is possible that Yahweh was indeed totally alone at that creation, since Colossians 1:15,16 is speaking of living creatures, not the physical universe. Jesus was the firstborn creature, indicating the firstborn of living creatures, not that he was born — brought forth into being — before God’s creation of the material universe. Thus, having all these thoughts in mind, the material universe, as being described in Isaiah 44:24, itself could have been created before God brought forth his firstborn living creature, and before he brought forth the “heavens and earth” as spoken of in Genesis 1:1. If soThis entry was posted in Scriptures, Trinity and tagged creation, creation of the physical universe, heavens and earth, Isaiah 44:24, Jesus is Yahweh, trinitarian. Bookmark the permalink.

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, then Yahweh was indeed totally “alone” in the creation spoken of in Isaiah 44:24.

Isaiah 44:24

Isaiah 44:24 – Jehovah was Alone

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Isaiah 44:24 – Jehovah was Alone

https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/is-44-24/

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Isaiah 44:24 - Jehovah Stretched Forth the Heavens Alone (2016-12-19)

https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/isa-4424.html

Isaiah 44:24 - Jehovah Alone Stretched Forth the Heavens

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. -- King James Version

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?). -- American Standard Version.

Isaiah 44:24 is often quoted as support for the extra-Biblical trinity doctrine. It is claimed that God was all by himself in the creation of the world of mankind, and therefore there could not have been another person there, not unless the other person was also God himself, as is claimed in the trinity dogma. In reality, there is nothing in Isaiah 44:24 that presents Jehovah as more than one person, and there no scriptural reason to imagine and assume that "Jehovah" in Isaiah 44:24 is not the same one person who is "Jehovah" in Isaiah 66:1. We do not need the extra-Biblical trinity rhetoric about three persons in order for this scripture to be harmonized with other scriptures.

It is often further claimed by many that Jesus is identified as the Creator in John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16,17 and Hebrews 1:10, and thus Jesus must be Jehovah of Isaiah 44:24.

Evidently, Jehovah was indeed alone when he first produced the material universe, but, after that, he most certainly was not alone in the creation of the world of mankind, the heavens and the earth being spoken of in Genesis 1,2. Jesus was indeed present at the beginning of the world that was made through him, as spoken of in John 1:1,3,10; 17:5. So were the angels present during the creation of that "world", with its heavens and earth. (Job 38:4-7 -- Should one also reason that all of these sons of God are also persons of God?) That "world", and all that was in it, was indeed created through, or by means of Jesus. That "world" did not include the angels, since we read in John 1:10 that this that was made through Jesus did not recognize him when he came into the world. On the other hand, even the fallen angels did recognize who Jesus was during the days of his flesh. (Mark 3:11; 5:7; Luke 8:28; Hebrews 5:7) Thus Jesus was evidently brought forth into being as the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15) sometime after the creation of the material universe, but before the beginning of the creation of the world of mankind that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1-2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10 and 17:5.
See "In the Beginning"
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/11/john1beginning.html

From this standpoint, we can see that Isaiah 44:24 is not speaking of the creation of the world of mankind, as in Genesis 1:1-2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10; 17:5, and Hebrews 1:10, but rather to the event before that creation, that is, the creation of the material universe itself.

However, even if Isaiah 44:24 should be thought to be speaking of the same creation as the Genesis 1,2, Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10; 17:5, and Hebrew 1:10 it would not necessarily follow that the word "alone" as used in that verse would lead to the conclusion that Jesus' presence with Jehovah in that creation would mean that Jesus would have to be Jehovah whom John says that Jesus was with (or toward) in the beginning. The word "alone" is often used in relation to what is being spoken, either as of a kind, or in context.

The word translated "alone" in the World English Bible translation is Strong's #905; it is the same word used of Adam in Genesis 2:18. Of course, we know that Adam was not totally alone, for he had God with whom he could speak; however, as regards a mate or a fellow human, he was alone. -- Genesis 2:20.

When Jacob said to Reuben concerning taking Benjamin to Egypt: "My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone [Strong's #905]." (Genesis 44:28; 44:20) Jacob did not mean that Benjamin was totally alone, but in reference to what he was speaking, his sons by Rachel, whom he loved. (Genesis 29:18,30; 35:24) Jacob did not know that Joseph was still alive, and thought him to be dead.

One could find more references, but the point of these examples is that the word "alone" does not necessarily mean totally alone, but in many cases must be viewed in the context of which it is speaking.

From this standpoint, the context in Isaiah 44:24 shows that Jehovah is talking about the idol-gods and the men who worshiped them. Jehovah was without any of these gods (nor the men who worshiped them) in the creation of the heavens and earth. A comparison scripture shows this:

Jehovah alone did lead him, There was no foreign god with him. -- Deuteronomy 32:12.

Was Jehovah saying here that actually no one else led the nation of Israel? Or is he saying that he was without any of the foreign gods in leading the nation?

Exodus 15:22: Moses led Israel onward from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.

Here we read that Moses led Israel. Should we assume, like our trinitarians neighbors do with Jesus, that Moses is God Almighty, since Jehovah said that he alone led Israel? After all, isn't Moses also called elohim? -- Exodus 7:1.

Now, let us look at one more scripture:

Psalm 77:20: You led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Here we read that Jehovah led his people by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Thus we can realize that Jehovah alone did lead them, but that he did so by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Likewise, Jehovah alone is the creator, yet he made the creation by the hand of Jesus.

The context of Isaiah 44:24 shows he was possibly comparing himself to the people of Israel here on earth and the idols they were making. (verses 1-23) None of these people who were forming these idols nor any of these formed idols were with Jehovah in the creation. So from this standpoint, even if Jehovah's words are speaking of the same creation as spoken of in John 1:1, it is not saying that Jehovah was not using Jesus in the instrument of creation, but rather that the idols gods of the nations were not with him at that creation.

In verse 19 it says "None calls to mind, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say,..." Taken out of context, this appears to be saying that there is no one [which taken to extremes could include even the angels] that calls to mind, etc. The context tells us that it is speaking of those who form idols from wood, however.

The word translated "alone" in Isaiah 44:24 is the Hebrew word bad (Strong's Hebrew #905). It is a word that used in comparison, and does not necessarily mean totally alone, but rather alone in relation to what is being spoken of. (Genesis 2:18; 32:24; Judges 6:40) Thus, in Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah could be seen in comparison with the idol-gods spoken of in the context (Isiah 44:9-20); only Jehovah stretched forth the heavens and spread abroad the earth. None of the idol-gods were with him in this.

Another point: Assuming that Isaiah 44:24 is speaking of the beginning of creation of the world of mankind as in John 1:1,10, if the last phrase of Isaiah 44:24 ("who is with me?") should be read to mean there was absolutely no one present when Jehovah spread abroad the earth, then it would contradict the scriptures in Job, which show that the angels were present at the creation of earth (as related to that spoken of in Genesis 1,2, and John 1:1,10; 17:5. At the beginning of creation spoken of in Mark 10:6, we do find that there were spirit sons of God at least present: "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." -- Job 38:4-7; see also Job 1:6; 2:1,2.

Thus we conclude that Jehovah could have been asking, "Who of these gods or their makers were with me when I created the heavens and the earth?"

Something else we need to note in Mark 10:6: Jesus says God (Jehovah -- whom he sits at the right hand of: Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22) is the maker referred to here in creation: "But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female." Thus only Jehovah is properly called the "Creator". -- Isaiah 40:28.

Furthermore, a business owner may say that he built his business all by himself, meaning that he was the one who originated the plans and and the force behind the business' growth. He does not mean that he had absolutely no one working with him in his business.

The scriptures abound with cases where Jehovah uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force. -- Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.

Jesus is not directly called creator; yet he is the means by which Jehovah carried out his creation. In Mark 10:6, Jesus says of God (Jehovah -- whom he sits at the right hand of -- Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22) is the maker in creation: "But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female." Thus only Jehovah is properly called the "Creator". -- Isaiah 40:28.
See "Is Jesus the Creator?"

As we stated at the beginning, however, Isaiah 44:24 is probably referring to an event before the creation spoken of in John 1:1-3,10, Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:10, etc.

Regardless, we find nothing in Isaiah 44:24 that would give us any reason to add to the scriptures the extra-Biblical story about three persons in one being, nor any idea that Jesus is Jehovah his God.

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