Mudre izreke 30:4 Kako mu se zove sin?
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4. Tko uzađe na nebo i siđe? Tko uhvati vjetar u šake svoje? Tko sabra vode u plašt svoj? Tko postavi krajeve zemaljske? Kako se zove i kako mu se zove sin? Znaš li?
מִי עָלָה שָׁמַיִם וַיֵּרַד מִי אָסַף רוּחַ בְּחָפְנָיו מִי צָרַר מַיִם בַּשִּׂמְלָה מִי הֵקִים כָּל אַפְסֵי אָרֶץ מַה שְּׁמוֹ וּמַה שֶּׁם בְּנוֹ כִּי תֵדָע
Mi alah šamajim vaijerad mi asaf ruah behafenav mi sarar majim basimlah mi hekim kol afsei arec mah šemov umah šem benov ki teda.
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Izreke 30:4 – Dvije osobe predstavljene kao jedan Bog?
Izreke 30,4 Tko je uzašao na nebo i sišao? Tko je skupio vjetar u šake? Tko je svezao vodu u svoju haljinu? Tko je utvrdio sve krajeve zemlje? Kako se on zove, a kako mu se zove sin, ako znate? — svjetski engleski Gore navedeni stih ponekad predstavljaju trinitarci i neki drugi kao dokaz da je Isus Jahve (Jehova). Međutim, u stihu definitivno nema ništa o trojedinom Bogu, ili da je Bog više od jedne osobe. Predstavljena misao je da je onaj koji je uzašao i sišao s neba Isus, onaj koji je skupio vjetar u svoje šake je Isus, onaj koji je svezao vode je Isus, i onaj koji je utvrdio sve krajeve zemlje je Isus. Isus. Ovdje se obrazlaže da je onaj koji je uzašao i sišao s neba Jahve itd.; prema tome, Isus mora biti Jahve. Svaka misao da je Jahve više od jedne osobe mora se zamisliti u domeni ljudske mašte, a pretpostavke koje su napravljene izvan onoga što je Agur napisao, a onda se te pretpostavke moraju staviti preko onoga što je Agur napisao, a ono što je Agur napisao mora biti krivo predstavljeno, kako bi ono što je napisao izgledalo kao dokaz da su Jahve i njegov Sin jedan Bog. Treba upotrijebiti dosta mašte da bi se pretpostavilo gore navedeno. Prije svega, pitanja su postavljena, ne da bi se Božji sin identificirao kao Bog, ali Agur opisuje sebe (i sve ljude u to vrijeme) u usporedbi s Jahvom, Svecem Izraelovim. Tko je uzašao na nebo i sišao? Misao koja stoji iza pitanja je da nijedan čovjek nije uzašao na nebo kako bi mogao definitivno znati o nebeskim stvarima, a sišao da bi ispričao što je ondje vidio. Isus, osobno, u to vrijeme još NIJE bio sišao s neba, i stoga, ovo ne govori o Isusu, iako je Isus sigurno koristio obrazloženje ovog pitanja kada je izjavio: Nitko nije uzašao na nebo, osim onoga koji je sišao s neba: Sin Čovječji.. - Ivan 3:13, New American Standard. Isus u to vrijeme još nije bio "uzišao" na nebo, ali je sišao s neba, i tako je mogao govoriti o nebeskim stvarima. (Ivan 3:12) Nije postojao nijedan drugi čovjek koji bi mogao reći da je sišao s neba. Nijedan čovjek u vrijeme Agur nije mogao reći da je sišao s neba. Naravno, sam Jahve je na nebu i na zemlji. “Jahve je Bog gore na nebu i dolje na zemlji.” (Ponovljeni zakon 4:39) On ne mora uzaći na nebo da bi znao o stvarima na nebu, a pitanje se čini da smatra da je to očito u njegovom slučaju, ali ne i u slučaju čovjeka, koji bi trebao imati uzdigao na nebo, a zatim sišao odatle kako bi govorio o nebeskim stvarima. Vidi: Isusovo predljudsko postojanje Tko je skupio vjetrove u svoje šake? Misli se da nijedan čovjek nije skupio vjetar u šake. Čovjek je taj koji ima šake; slikovito govoreći, moglo bi se reći da Jahve ima šake, ali nismo pronašli nijedno pismo koje govori da Jahve posjeduje šake. Misao je, međutim, u usporedbi, vjetrove ne može kontrolirati čovjek, ali da ih Jahve može kontrolirati kako hoće. Isus je pomoću Jahvina figurativno prsta (Luka 11,20), Božjeg Svetog Duha (Matej 12,28), pokazao Jahvinu moć vjetrova. — Luka 8:25. Tko je svezao vodu u svoju haljinu? Tko je svezao vodu u haljinu? == Youngov literal Opet, čovjek je taj koji nosi odjeću; svaka upotreba ovoga u vezi s Bogom morala bi biti figurativna. Međutim, "odjeća" bi mogla biti figurativna za odjeću koja ograničava granice vode. Jahve je vezao vode u drugom i trećem danu stvaranja u odnosu na planet Zemlju. Naravno, jedini pravi Bog (Ivan 17:3) je upotrijebio svog Sina kao posrednika pomoću kojeg je Bog stvorio nebo i zemlju; to ne znači da je Jahvin zastupnik Jahve. (Ivan 1:10; 17:5) Poanta je, međutim, da nijedan čovjek ne može vezati vode zemlje kao što je to učinio Bog. Tko je utvrdio sve krajeve zemlje? Čini se da se "Zemlja" ovdje ne odnosi na sam planet, već na "Zemlju" koja je stvorena trećeg dana stvaranja. (Postanak 1:9,10) Zastupnik kojeg je Bog upotrijebio u ovom stvaranju bio je njegov Sin. (Ivan 1:10; 17:1,3,5) Stoga, kao Božji agent, moglo bi se reći da je Sin Božji utvrdio sve krajeve zemlje. (Hebrejima 1:10) To ne bi značilo da je Isus Stvoritelj ili da su Isus i njegov Bog jedan Bog. Kako se on zove{?) Njegovo ime odnosi se samo na Jahvu kao jednu osobu, a ne kao tri osobe. Naravno, Bog je otkrio svoje ime Izraelu i to se ime obično prevodi na engleski kao Jehova ili Jahve (što znači: On jest, On će biti, On uzrokuje postojanje). Međutim, poznavati riječ koja predstavlja ime ne znači poznavati osobu koja je predstavljena tim imenom. A kako se zove njegov sin, ako znate? Ovdje imamo misao o drugom imenu, a ne istom "imenu" kao što je predstavljeno u izrazu "njegovo ime". “Njegovo” u izrazu “ime njegovog sina
” odnosi se na istu osobu o kojoj se ranije govorilo u frazi, to jest na “njegovo ime”. “Ime”, dakle, sina nije isto “ime” kao ime oca sina, ali je drugačije ime. Neki su nastojali prikazati da se u Izrekama 30:4 spominje samo jedno ime; pomno ispitivanje onoga što je rečeno, međutim, otkriva da se spominju dva različita imena, "njegovo [Očevo] ime", i "ime njegova sina", ime sina Očeva. Naravno, u to vrijeme sin još nije bio otkriven i nijedan čovjek nije mogao odgovoriti u vezi s tim da zna ime sina, jer nijedan čovjek nije uzašao na nebo da zna tko je sin. Gledajući tako, ne postoji ništa u Izrekama 30:4 što daje bilo kakvu naznaku da Bog postoji u tri osobe, ili da su Sin i njegov Bog i Otac jedan Bog.
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Proverbs 30:4 – Two Persons Represented As One God?
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? — World English
The above scripture is sometimes presented by trinitarians and some others as evidence that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). There is, however, definitely nothing in the verse about a triune God, or that God is more than one person.
The thought presented is that he who has ascended and descended from heaven is Jesus, and he who has gathered the wind in his fists is Jesus, and who he bound the waters is Jesus, and he who established the all the ends of the earth is Jesus. It is reasoned here that he who has ascended and descended from heaven is Yahweh, etc.; thus, Jesus must be Yahweh. Any thought that Yahweh is more than one person has to be imagined in the realm of human imagination, and assumptions made beyond what Agur wrote, and then those assumptions have to be placed over what Agur wrote, and what Agur wrote has to be misrepresented, in order to make what he wrote appear to be proof that Yahweh and his Son are one God.
One has to do use a lot of imagination so as to assume the above. First of all, the questions are asked, not to identify the son of God as God, but Agur describes himself (and all men at that time) as compared to Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel.
Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended?
The thought behind the question is that no man has ascended into heaven so that he could definitely know about heavenly things, and descended so as to tell about what he had seen there. Jesus, himself, at that time had NOT yet descended from heaven, and thus, this is not speaking of Jesus, although Jesus surely used the reasoning of this question when he stated:
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven : the Son of Man.. — John 3:13, New American Standard.
Jesus had not yet — at that time — “ascended” into heaven, but he had descended from heaven, and thus could tell of heavenly things. (John 3:12) No other man has ever existed that could say that he descended from heaven. No man in the time Agur could say that he had descended from heaven.
Of course, Yahweh Himself is in heaven and earth. “Yahweh he is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath.” (Deuteronomy 4:39) He does not have to ascend to heavens in order to know of things of heaven, and the question appears to consider this to be evident in his case, but not in the case of man, who would need to have ascended into heaven and then descended therefrom in order to tell of heavenly things.
See: Jesus’ Pre-Human Existence
Who has gathered the winds in his fists?
The thought is that no man has gathered the wind in his fists. It is man that has fists; figuratively speaking, Yahweh could be said to have fists, but we have not found any scripture that refers to Yahweh as possessing fists. The thought, however, is in comparison, the winds cannot be controlled by man, but that Yahweh can control them as he wills. Jesus, by means of Yahweh’s figuratively finger (Luke 11:20), God’s Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28), demonstrated Yahweh’s power of the winds. — Luke 8:25.
Who has bound the waters in his garment?
Who hath bound waters in a garment? == Young’s Literal
Again, it is man that wears garments; any use of this related to God would have to be figurative. “Garment” could be figurative, however, of a garment limiting the bounds of the water. Yahweh did bound the waters in the second and third days of creation as related to the planet earth. Of course, the only true God (John 17:3) did use His Son as an agent by which God created the heavens and earth; this does no mean that the agent of Yahweh is Yahweh. (John 1:10; 17:5) The point is, however, that no man can bind the waters of the earth as did God.
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
“Earth” here does not appear to be referring to the planet itself, but the “earth” that was created on the third day of creation. (Genesis 1:9,10) The agent that God used in this creation was His Son. (John 1:10; 17:1,3,5) Thus, as God’s agent, the Son of God could also be said to have established all the ends of the earth. (Hebrews 1:10) Such would not mean that Jesus is the Creator, or that Jesus and his God are one God.
What is his name{?)
What is his name refers only to Yahweh as one person, not as three persons. Of course, God had revealed his name to Israel and that name is usually rendered into English as Jehovah or Yahweh (meaning: He is, He will be, He causes to be). To know the word that represents the name does not, however, know the person that is represented by the name.
And what is his son’s name, if you know?
Here we have the thought of another name, not the same “name” as represented in the phrase “his name”. “His” in the phrase “his son’s name” refers back to same person who was being spoken of in the phrase before, that is, “his name”. The “name”, then, of the son is not the same “name” as that of the son’s father, but is is a different name. Some have sought to make it appear that in Proverbs 30:4, only one name is being referred to; a close examination of what is said, however, reveals that two different names are being referred to, “his [the Father's] name”, and “his son’s name”, the name of the son of the Father.
Of course, at that time, the son had not yet been revealed, and no man could answer concerning having knowledge of the son’s name, as no man had ascended into heaven so as to know who the son was.
Thus seen, there is nothing in Proverbs 30:4 that gives any indication that God exists in three person, or that the Son and his God and Father are one God.