https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-03/
Otkrivenje 22:13 – Ja sam Alfa i Omega
Objavljeno 18. rujna 2008. | 9 komentara
Prije nego što ovo pročitate, pogledajte naše komentare na Otkrivenje 1:8 i Otkrivenje 21:6 .
Sada dolazimo do Otkrivenja 22:13. Mnogi su sigurni da ovo govori Isus, budući da onaj koji govori govori o njegovom "dolasku", a u Otkrivenju 22,20 Isus kaže: "Dolazim brzo." A Ivan uzvikuje: “Amen! Dođi, Gospodine Isuse.” Mnogi tvrde da ovaj stih dokazuje da je Isus Jehova, Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova:
Ovo zanemaruje činjenicu da sveto pismo govori o Jehovi [Jahvi] kao dolasku, kao io Isusovom dolasku, te da su to dvoje usko povezani. To ne znači da je Isus Jehova. Jehova, Isusov Bog i Otac, dolazi suditi svijetu, ne samo s Isusom i posredstvom njega, već također i svetaca. — Malahija 3:1-6; Psalam 96,13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Izaija 40:10,11; Mihej 1:3; Zaharija 14:5; Djela 17:31; 2. Petrova 3,7.8; 1. Korinćanima 6,2; Psalam 90,4; Juda 1,14.15; Otkrivenje 1,1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6.
Pitanje je, dakle, je li zapravo Isus taj koji je citiran u Otkrivenju 22;13 ili je to bio Jehova, Isusov Bog? (Mihej 5:4) U nastavku citiramo Otkrivenje 22:6-21 s našim komentarima u zagradama [].
Otkrivenje 22:6 [Ivan piše:] On [anđeo spomenut u Otkrivenju 21:9] reče mi [Ivanu], “Ove su riječi vjerne i istinite. Gospodin [Jehova – jedina osoba koja je govorila kroz proroke – Hebrejima 1:1], Bog duhova proroka, poslao je svoje anđele da pokažu njegovim slugama stvari koje se uskoro moraju dogoditi.” [Ovo se slaže s Otkrivenjem 1:1-5, da je otkrivenje od Boga preko Isusa, i da ga donosi anđeo, i slaže se s 1. Korinćanima 8:6, koji označava Oca kao izvor, a Isusa kao instrument. ]
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
Otkrivenje 22:7 [Obratite pažnju na naglu promjenu; anđeo iznenada citira nekoga kako dolazi:] “Evo, dolazim brzo [ili iznenada]. Blago onome koji drži riječi proroštva ove knjige.” [Mnogi tvrde da je onaj koji ovamo dolazi Isus; njegov bi mogao biti u ovom konkretnom stihu; međutim, više je nego vjerojatno, budući da je Isus samo govorio o Jehovi, ovo citira Jehovu koji dolazi suditi svijetu (Psalam 96:13; 98:9), i koji je govorio kroz proroke davnih vremena. — Hebrejima 1:1.]
Otkrivenje 22:8 [Ivan više ne citira anđela ili bilo koga drugog, već govori o sebi:] Ja, Ivan, sam taj koji je čuo i vidio ove stvari. Kad sam čuo i vidio, pao sam ničice da se poklonim pred nogama anđela koji mi je to pokazao.
Otkrivenje 22:9 On [anđeo] mi reče [Ivanu]: “Vidi, nemoj to činiti! Ja sam susluga tebi i tvojoj braći, prorocima, i onima koji drže riječi ove knjige. Klanjaj se Bogu.” [Ivan je očito mislio dati ovom anđelu štovanje koje pripada samo Jehovi; odgovor anđela mogao bi značiti da, budući da je anđeo izgovorio Jehovine riječi, Ivan je mislio da je anđeo sam Jehova, i anđeo je to shvatio, što je potaknulo anđeoov odgovor.]
Otkrivenje 22:10 On [anđeo] mi reče [Ivanu]: “Nemoj zapečatiti riječi proročanstva ove knjige, jer vrijeme je blizu.
Otkrivenje 22,11 Tko čini nepravdu, neka i dalje čini nepravdu. Tko je prljav, neka se i dalje prlja. Tko je pravedan, neka i dalje čini pravednost. Tko je svet, neka se i dalje sveti.” [Ovo se mora odnositi na kraj tisućljetnog sudnjeg dana, nakon što je konačni sud završen; nakon što je presuda dovršena, oni dopušteni u gradu i oni izvan grada ne mogu se promijeniti. Oni izvan grada nakon završetka presude bit će oni koji su prikazani kao uništeni vatrom u Otkrivenju 20:9, i koji su prikazani kao bačeni u ognjeno jezero u Otkrivenju 20:15.]
Otkrivenje 22:12 [Vrlo naglo anđeo ponovno počinje citirati nekoga drugog:] “Evo, dolazim brzo [ili iznenada]. Moja je plaća sa mnom, da uzvratim svakome po djelu njegovu. [Sveto pismo je vrlo jasno da je jedna osoba Jehova koji je govorio preko svog proroka Izaije, i o kome je Izaija pisao (Izaija 40:10; 62:11). To je isti “Bog/Božanstvo/Božanstvo) o kojem se govori kao o jednoj osobi u Djelima 17 koja sudi preko onoga koga je odredio, Gospodina Isusa (Djela 17:31). Svaki će čovjek dobiti svoju hvalu od Isusova Boga, a ta jedna osoba koja je Isusov Bog/Dijet/Božanstvo identificirana je u sljedećim stihovima: Psalam 96:13; Psalam 98,9; Izaija 40:10,11; 61:1; Djela 17:23,24,29-31; Rimljanima 2,16; 1. Korinćanima 4,5; 2. Timoteju 4:1.]
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
Otkrivenje 22:13 Ja sam Alfa i Omega, Prvi i Posljednji, Početak i Svršetak.” [Ovo identificira govornika, ne kao Isusa, već kao onoga koji sjedi na prijestolju, onoga koji jest, bio je i koji dolazi — pogledajte srodne studije na Alpha and Omega Links .
Otkrivenje 22:14 [Očito je anđeo tada citiran kako kaže:] “Blagoslovljeni oni [pogani kojima se sudi tijekom tisućugodišnje vladavine Isusa i crkve] koji vrše njegove [Božje] zapovijedi [otkrivene u knjigama koje su otvorene njima tijekom tog sudnjeg dana - Otkrivenje 20:12], da oni [ovce budućeg vijeka] mogu imati pravo na drvo života i mogu ući na vrata u grad.
Otkrivenje 22:15 Vani su psi, vrači, bludnici, ubojice, idolopoklonici i svi koji ljube i čine laž." [oni u sudnjem danu koji se pokažu kao jarci tog doba — Matej 25:31-46]
Otkrivenje 22:16 [Sada anđeo citira Isusa:] “Ja, Isus, poslah svog anđela da vam posvjedoči ove stvari za skupštine. Ja sam korijen [Isus postaje Davidov korijen u Davidovoj regeneraciji u budućem dobu] i Davidov potomak; sjajna i jutarnja zvijezda."
Otkrivenje 22:17 [Ovo vjerojatno govori anđeo, iako bi još uvijek mogao biti Isus:] “Duh i zaručnica govore [u onom budućem dobu]: 'Dođi!' Tko čuje, neka kaže: 'Dođi!' Tko je žedan, neka dođe. Tko želi, neka uzima vodu života zabadava.”
Otkrivenje 22:18 [Ovo je vjerojatno Isus koji svjedoči (stih 20) koji se citira] “Svjedočim svakom čovjeku koji čuje riječi proroštva ove knjige, ako im tko što doda, neka Bog na njega nanese zla koja su napisano u ovoj knjizi.
Otkrivenje 22:19 Ako tko [u onom budućem dobu] oduzme od riječi knjige ovog proroštva, neka Bog [Onaj koji jest, bio je i dolazi, onaj koji dolazi suditi svijetu kroz Isusa — Djela 17 :31] oduzmi njegov dio od drveta života i od svetoga grada, koji su zapisani u ovoj knjizi.”
Otkrivenje 22:20 [Ivan piše] On [Isus] koji svjedoči za ove stvari kaže: "Da, dolazim brzo [ili iznenada]." [Ivan odgovara:] Amen! Dođi Gospodine Isuse.
Otkrivenje 22,21 Milost Gospodina Isusa sa svima svetima. Amen. — Svjetski engleski prijevod Biblije, s navodnicima malo prilagođenim u odnosu na one koji se koriste u Svjetskom engleskom jeziku.
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
O sudnjem danu pogledati studiju:
Hod čovječanstva do Sudnjeg dana.
Naravno, da je Isus izjavio da je on taj Alfa i Omega itd., to još uvijek ne bi značilo da trebamo zamišljati, pretpostavljati, dodavati i čitati u svetim spisima da je Isus Jehova, Bog Izraela. Isus bi sebe označio jedinstvenim u nekoj kvaliteti koju mu je dao njegov Bog, Jehova, slično načinu na koji je o sebi govorio kao o prvom i posljednjem koji je mrtav . — Mihej 5:4.
Jedan nam je poslao neke prigovore na gore navedeno. KLIKNITE OVDJE da vidite naš odgovor.
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Otkrivenje 22:13 – Prigovori
https://sonofyah-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2008/09/30/rev-2213-obj/?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=hr&_x_tr_hl=de
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/rev-2213-obj/
Objavljeno 30. rujna 2008. | 3 komentara
Neki prigovori objavljeni su u vezi s našim predstavljanjem Otkrivenja 22:13 na sljedećem blogu:
http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2008/09/bible-basics-trinity-part-2-redux.html
MMcelhaney se zapravo ne bavi predstavljenim argumentima, već se čini da umjesto toga predstavlja materijal osmišljen kako bi odvratio pozornost od studija.
MMcelhaney navodi:
Volio bih vidjeti koju je verziju Biblije i koji tisk autor koristio.
U studiji sam pokazao korišteni prijevod: “ Prijevod Biblije na svjetski engleski , s navodnicima malo prilagođenim u odnosu na one koji se koriste u svjetskom engleskom.”
Nisam koristio nijedno tiskano izdanje, ali koristio sam ono koje je na mreži na studylight.org i bible.crosswalk.com. Informacije o ovom prijevodu mogu se pronaći na:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Information/WorldEnglishBible.html
Svjetski engleski prevoditelji, budući da su trinitarci i vjeruju da je Alfa i Omega Isus, stavili bi navodnike kako bi poduprli to uvjerenje. Naravno, raniji grčki jezik nije imao interpunkciju, navodnike itd., tako da je sve što je uneseno duž ovog retka uneseno prema nahođenju prevoditelja.
MMcelhaney nastavlja:
Svaka verzija King Jamesa i svaka Biblija koja ima Kristove riječi ispisane crvenim slovima ima ove stihove ispisane crvenom bojom. Zašto? Tradicionalno se to tumačilo kao Isusove riječi.
Čini se da se ovo poziva na ljudske tradicije, a ne da se zapravo obraća samim spisima. Činjenica da bilo koji izdavač Biblije odluči staviti riječi crvenom bojom kako bi te riječi pripisao Isusu ne nudi nikakav dokaz da je te riječi doista izgovorio Isus. Dodajmo ovome da je većina izdavača Biblije trinitaraca, te stoga vjeruju da je Isus tvrdio da je Alfa i Omega. Zapravo, ova vrsta argumenta je kružna, izjavljujući da vjerujemo da su ovo Isusove riječi, i stoga, budući da vjerujemo da su to Isusove riječi, nudimo naše vjerovanje da su to Isusove riječi kao dokaz da su one Isusove riječi.
MMcelhaney citira neko nezapaženo izdanje NIV-a, koje ima crvene riječi za koje je izdavač mislio da su Isusove, očito kao dokaz da su te riječi doista Isusove. Opet, ova vrsta razmišljanja je također kružna. Drugim riječima, navodi se da budući da je trinitaristički izdavač stavio riječi crvenom bojom zbog svog uvjerenja da su to Isusove riječi, onda je to dokaz da su to Isusove riječi. Citiranje NIV-a uopće se ne bavi argumentima koje smo iznijeli u studijama:
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-01/
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/ao-2/
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-03/
MMcelhaney navodi:
Zašto pretpostaviti da anđeo citira nekog drugog.
Iako nisam siguran koja je svrha ove izjave; Dao sam razloge za to u studijama, a to je navedeno u Otkrivenju 1:1. Nema razloga pretpostaviti suprotno. Ivan govori o anđelima koji su mu govorili i pokazali mu te stvari. — Otkrivenje 1:1; 17:7; 22:6,8.
Od četvrtog poglavlja Otkrivenja do kraja knjige, onaj “koji sjedi na prijestolju” nije Jaganjac koji prikazuje Isusa, jer Jaganjac prilazi onome koji sjedi na prijestolju kako bi uzeo svitak s onaj koji sjedi na prijestolju. (Otkrivenje 5:6,7) Ovaj "koji sjedi na prijestolju" je onaj koga je Isus ranije oslovio sa "moj Bože". (Otkrivenje 2:7; 3:2,12) Onaj koji sjedi na prijestolju je Jahve Bog, Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova, Bog koji je poslao Isusa, Bog i Otac Isusov. — Izlazak 3:15; Ponovljeni zakon 18:15-19; Matej 4:4 (Pnz 8:3; Luka 4:4); Matej 4:7 (Pnz 6:16); Matej 4:10 (Izlazak 20:3-5; 34:14; Ponovljeni zakon 6:13,14; 10:20; Luka 4:8); Matej 22:29-40; Matej 26:42; Matej 27:46; Marko 10:6 (Postanak 1:27; Postanak 2:7,20-23); Marko 14:36; 15:34; Luka 22:42; Ivan 4,3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Rimljanima 15,6; 2. Korinćanima 1,3; 11:31; Efežanima 1:3,17; Hebrejima 1,9; 10:7; 1. Petrova 1,3; Otkrivenje 2,7; 3:2,12.
MMcelhaney nastavlja:
On niti bilo koji anđeo ili čovjek osim Isusa Krista nije kvalificiran reći većinu, ako ne i sve stihove za koje tvrdim da govori Isus, a ne anđeo.
Kao što je rečeno, čini se da ovo predstavlja misao koju nikada nisam iznio, kao da sam rekao da su sve riječi iz Otkrivenja 22 bile riječi anđela, a ne Isusa niti Isusovog Boga i Oca. Ako je tako, to nisam rekao. Međutim, vjerojatno je da je anđeo prenosio riječi Isusa i Isusovog Boga u raznim dijelovima Otkrivenja 22, kao i na mnogim drugim mjestima u knjizi Otkrivenja.
MMcelhaney zatim izjavljuje:
Nijedan čovjek nikada nije vidio Oca. Ovo mora uključivati samog Ivana tako da Otac nije razgovarao s Ivanom.
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
S ovim se slažem. Nitko - nitko od rase koja umire u Adamu - nije vidio Boga i Oca Isusa, jedinog pravog Boga koji je poslao Isusa. (Ivan 1:18) Jedini čovjek koji je vidio jedinog pravog Boga bio je onaj koji je sišao s neba. (Ivan 3:13) Ivan je vidio stvari pomoću Božjeg svetog duha, to jest u vizijama, a te su vizije Ivanu prenosili Jehovini anđeli. Ivan zapravo nije vidio jedinog Svevišnjeg kako sjedi na prijestolju, već je vidio prikaz takvog na vizionarski način, pomoću duha. (Otkrivenje 1:10; 4:2) Ne smijemo misliti da prikazi fizičkih stvari (prijestolje, krune, duga, munje, grmljavina, vatrene svjetiljke, itd.) kako je opisano u knjizi Otkrivenja, zapravo postoje u nebeski duhovni svijet u kojem prebiva Bog. Kad se govori o Janjetu, ne smijemo misliti da postoji doslovno fizičko janje na nebu; ne govori se o doslovnom janjetu, već se govori figurativno, kao opis Isusa, koji se prinio Bogu za naše grijehe. Dakle, ono što je Ivan vidio bile su slikovite scene koje figurativno prikazuju stvarnost.
MMcelhaney nam kaže:
Anđeo je rekao Ivanu u stihu 6 da je "Gospodin" poslao anđela. “Gospodin, Bog duhova proroka” je ono što kaže stih. Ako su obje istinite. Tada je Isus “Gospodin, Bog duhova proročkih”.
Ovo se odnosi na Otkrivenje 22:6:
Reče mi: “Ove riječi su vjerne i istinite. Gospodin , Bog duhova proroka , posla svoje anđele da pokažu njegovim slugama što se ima uskoro dogoditi.”
Ovaj bi izraz trebao biti jasan sam po sebi. "On" je anđeo koji pokazuje te stvari Ivanu, kao što se govori u Otkrivenju 21:9,15; 22:1. “Gospodin” je ovdje zamjena za sveto ime (Jahve/Jehova) Boga Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova. Ovo je jedina osoba identificirana u Hebrejima 1:1 kao Bog proroka, koji je govorio kroz proroke.
Otkrivenje 22:16 bilježi kako je Isus rekao: “Ja, Isus, poslah svoga glasnika (anđela) da vam svjedoči o ovim stvarima, za skupštine. Ja sam Korijen i Potomstvo Davidovo, sjajna i Zvijezda Danica.” Ako su poslani anđeli bili Jehovini anđeli, kako je Isus mogao anđela nazivati "mojim anđelom", ako je on zapravo bio Jehovin anđeo? Jehova je dao svu vlast Isusu (Matej 28:18), uključujući vlast nad anđelima. (1. Petrova 3:22) Autoritet mu je dao jedini pravi Bog, Jehova. Dakle, kao što je Isus govorio o ovcama kao o "mojim ovcama" (Ivan 10,27), a ipak kaže da je njegov "Otac koji mi ih je dao" (Ivan 10,29), i "Bile su tvoje, a ti si mi ih dao. ” (Ivan 17:6) Dakle, Isus, primivši vlast i nad anđelima Jehovinim, Isus je mogao govoriti o Jehovinom anđelu kao o "mojem anđelu". Ako Bob radi za DE Company, a DE Company Bobu dodijeli ured, taj se ured naziva "Bobov ured", a ipak je to također ured DE Company.
Bog je još rekao Mojsiju: "Ovo ćeš reći sinovima Izraelovim: 'Jahve, Bog vaših otaca, Bog Abrahamov, Bog Izakov i Bog Jakovljev, poslao me k vama.' Ovo je moje ime zauvijek, i ovo je moj spomen za sve naraštaje. — Izlazak 3:15, svjetski engleski prijevod Biblije
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
Bog duhova proroka ista je jedna osoba koja je Bog koji je govorio kroz Isusa. (Hebrejima 1:1,2) Isti Bog, Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova, koji je poslao Mojsija (Izlazak 3:15), također je poslao i Isusa. (Ponovljeni zakon 18:15-19) Isus je prikazan kako proročanski govori: "Jehova me ... poslao." (Izaija 61:1, Greenov doslovac) Ništa u ovome ne ukazuje na to da je Jehova (koji je poslao Isusa) Isus (koga je poslao Jehova). Cijelo Otkrivenje dolazi od Isusova Boga i Oca; Isusov Bog i Otac daje objavu Isusu; Isus daje objavu Jehovinim anđelima, anđeli su dostavili objavu Ivanu, koji je zauzvrat trebao prenijeti objavu Božjim slugama.
Ovo je Objava Isusa Krista, koju mu je Bog dao da pokaže svojim slugama što se ima uskoro dogoditi, koju je poslao i objavio po svom anđelu svom sluzi Ivanu. — Otkrivenje 1:1, svjetski engleski.
Ono što ne nalazimo u Otkrivenju ili bilo gdje drugdje u cijeloj Bibliji je ideja da je Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova više od jedne osobe.
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Otkrivenje 22:13 – Odgovor Neilu
Otkrivenje 22:13 – Odgovor
Objavljeno 17. listopada 2008. | 1 komentar
Jedan je odgovorio na našu raspravu o Otkrivenju 22:13, tvrdnjom da smo “upleteni u najbizarnije mentalne izobličenja”.
Za naša druga ispitivanja Otkrivenja 22:13 i drugih povezanih stihova:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/alpha-and-omega.html
Nije nam točno rečeno kako to da smo navodno bili uključeni u bizarne mentalne izobličenosti. Nastojali smo što je moguće jednostavnije izložiti logički zaključak u odnosu na kontekst, ostatak knjige Otkrivenja, kao i pokazati tko što govori u skladu s cijelom Biblijom. Čini se da navedena misao ukazuje na to da Isus ostaje govornik od Otkrivenja 22:13 do stiha 16, gdje je definitivno Isus taj koji kaže: "Ja Isus." Međutim, trebali bismo primijetiti da Otkrivenje 22:14 sigurno daje naznaku da nijegovori ista osoba koja je govorila u Otkrivenju 22:13, budući da se odnosi na “njegove zapovijedi”. Stoga je najlogičniji zaključak da onaj tko govori u stihu 14 nije onaj koji se identificira kao Alfa i Omega u stihu 13. U tome nema ničeg bizarnog ili iskrivljenog.
Dodatno, Alfa i Omega identificirani su u poglavlju 21:5,6 kao onaj koji sjedi na prijestolju, a koji nije Janje (Isus), budući da je Isus taj koji uzima svitak od Onoga koji sjedi na prijestolju. (Otkrivenje 5:7) Nemamo razloga misliti da Alfa i Omega u Otkrivenju 22:13 nije ista osoba koja govori u Otkrivenju 21:5,6.
Prije, to je definitivno anđeo, a ne Isus ili Jahve, koji govori u stihovima od 9 do 11. Stihovi 12 i 13 sasvim sigurno nisu anđeo, iako izravno ne postoji ništa što bi pokazalo bilo kakav prekid između anđela i nekog drugog. To je Jahve — Bog i Otac Isusov, Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova, jedini pravi Bog koji je poslao Isusa — o kome je prorečeno u Starom zavjetu: “Jahve; jer on dolazi, jer on dolazi suditi zemlji. Sudit će svijetu po pravdi, narodima po istini svojoj.” (Psalam 96,13) “Neka pjevaju pred Jahvom, jer on dolazi suditi zemlju. On će suditi svijetu po pravdi i narodima po pravdi.” (Psalam 98,9) Pavao nam daje do znanja da Jahve dolazi suditi preko onoga koga je Jahve odredio. (Djela 17:31) U Starom zavjetu, Jahve je sudio Izraelu preko mnogih sudaca koje je poslao; isto tako, On sudi svijetu preko svoga Sina, kojega je odredio, postavio za suca. Dakle, iako doista postoji vrlo bliska veza između Isusa i onoga što Isusov Bog čini kroz Isusa, to ne znači da je Isus njegov Bog.
Bez obzira na to, čak i da je Isus taj koji je upotrijebio izraz Alfa i Omega u Otkrivenju 22:13, to još uvijek ne bi značilo da je Isus njegov Bog. To bi samo značilo da je na neki način izraz Alfa i Omega primjenjiv i na Isusa i na njegovog Boga. Trebalo bi pretpostaviti ideju da je Isus Jahve; a zatim pretpostaviti i dodati toj pretpostavci da je Isus Jahvina osoba, kako bi se Svetom pismu dodalo trojstveno gledište.
Oglasi
PRIJAVITE OVAJ OGLAS
Isus, naravno, nikada nije predstavljen u Bibliji kao Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova. Isusa je poslao Bog Abrahama, Izaka i Jakova. — Ponovljeni zakon 18:15-19; Matej 4:4 (Pnz 8:3; Luka 4:4); Matej 4:7 (Pnz 6:16); Matej 4:10 (Izlazak 20:3-5; 34:14; Ponovljeni zakon 6:13,14; 10:20; Luka 4:8); Matej 22:29-40; Matej 26:42; Matej 27:46; Marko 10:6 (Postanak 1:27; Postanak 2:7,20-23); Marko 14:36; 15:34; Luka 22:42; Ivan 4,3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Rimljanima 15,6; 2. Korinćanima 1,3; 11:31; Efežanima 1:3,17; Hebrejima 1,9; 10:7; 1. Petrova 1,3; Otkrivenje 2,7; 3:2,12.
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Revelation 22:13 – Response to Neil
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/rev22-13neil/
Revelation 22:13 – Response
Posted on October 17, 2008 | 1 Comment
One has responded to our discussion of Revelation 22:13, with the claim that we “engage in the most bizarre mental contortions.”
For our other examinations of Revelation 22:13 and other related scriptures:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/alpha-and-omega.html
We are not told exactly how it is that we allegedly engaged in bizarre mental contortions. We have endeavored to lay out as simply as possible the logical conclusion as related to the context, the rest of the book of Revelation, as well as to show who is saying what in harmony with the entire Bible. The thought given seems to indicate that Jesus remains the speaker from Revelation 22:13 to verse 16, where it is definitely Jesus who says, “I Jesus.” However, we should note that Revelation 22:14 definitely gives sure indication of not being spoken by the same person who was speaking in Revelation 22:13, since it refers back to “his commandments.” Thus, the most logical conclusion is that whoever is speaking in verse 14 is not the one who identifies himself as Alpha and Omega in verse 13. There is nothing bizarre or contorted in that.
Additionally, Alpha and Omega is identified in Chapter 21:5,6 as the one sitting on the throne, who is not the Lamb (Jesus), since Jesus is the one who takes the scroll from the One sitting on the throne. (Revelation 5:7) We have no reason to think that Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22:13 is not the same person who speaks in Revelation 21:5,6.
Before, it is definitely the angel, not Jesus or Yahweh, speaking in verses 9 through 11. Verses 12 and 13 are most certainly not the angel, although directly there is nothing to show any break from the angel to someone else. It is Yahweh — the God and Father of Jesus, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the only true God who sent Jesus — of whom it prophesied in the Old Testament: “Yahweh; for he comes, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, The peoples with his truth.” (Psalm 96:13) “Let them sing before Yahweh, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity” (Psalm 98:9) Paul lets us know that Yahweh comes to judge by means of the one that Yahweh ordained. (Acts 17:31) In the Old Testament, Yahweh judged Israel by means of many judges whom he sent; likewise, He judges the world by means of His Son, whom he has ordained, appointed, as judge. So while there is indeed a very close connection between Jesus and what Jesus’ God performs through Jesus, this does not mean that Jesus is his God.
Regardless, even if it were Jesus who used the term Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22:13, it still would not mean that Jesus is his God. It would only mean that in some way the term Alpha and Omega is applicable to both Jesus and to his God. One would have to assume the idea that Jesus is Yahweh; and then assume and add to that assumption that the Jesus is a person of Yahweh, in order to have the trinitarian view added to the scripture.
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Jesus, of course, is never presented in the Bible as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
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https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-03/
Revelation 22:13 – I am Alpha and Omega
Posted on September 18, 2008 | 9 Comments
Before reading this, please see our comments on Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 21:6.
Now we come to Revelation 22:13. Many feel sure that this is Jesus speaking, since the one speaking tells of his “coming”, and in Revelation 22:20, Jesus says: “I come quickly.” And John exclaims: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” Many claim this scripture proves that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
This overlooks the fact that the scriptures speak of Jehovah [Yahweh] as coming, and also of Jesus’ coming, and that the two are closely associated. This does not mean that Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, comes to judge the world, not only with and by means of Jesus, but also the saints. — Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Isaiah 40:10,11; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Psalm 90:4; Jude 1:14,15; Revelation 1:1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6.
So the question is, was actually Jesus who was being quoted in Revelation 22;13, or was it Jehovah, the God of Jesus? (Micah 5:4) Below we quote Revelation 22:6-21 with our comments in brackets [].
Revelation 22:6 [John writes:] He [The angel mentioned in Revelation 21:9] said to me [John], “These words are faithful and true. The Lord [Jehovah – the one person who spoke through the prophets — Hebrews 1:1], the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show to his servants the things which must happen soon.” [This agrees with Revelation 1:1-5, that the revelation is from God through Jesus, and delivered by an angel, and it agrees with 1 Corinthians 8:6, which designates the Father as the source, and Jesus as the instrument.]
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Revelation 22:7 [Note the abrupt change; the angel suddenly quotes someone as coming:] “Behold, I come quickly [or suddenly]. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” [Many claim that the one coming here is Jesus; his could be in this particular verse; however, more than likely, since Jesus was just referring to Jehovah, this is quoting Jehovah who comes to judge the world (Psalm 96:13; 98:9), and who spoke through the prophets of old. — Hebrews 1:1.]
Revelation 22:8 [John is no longer quoting the angel or anyone else, but speaks of himself:] Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
Revelation 22:9 He [the angel] said to me [John], “See you don’t do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” [John evidently thought to give to this angel the worship that only belongs to Jehovah; the angel’s response could indicate that, because he angel had spoken the words of Jehovah, John thought that the angel was Jehovah Himself, and the angel realized this, prompting the angel’s response.]
Revelation 22:10 He [The angel] said to me [John], “Don’t seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22:11 He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still.” [This has to refer to the end of the millennial judgment day, after the final judgment is complete; once the judgment is completed, those allowed in the city and those outside the city cannot be changed. Those outside the city after the finalization of the judgment will be those who are pictured as being destroyed by fire of Revelation 20:9, and who are pictured as being cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15.]
Revelation 22:12 [Very abruptly the angel begins to quote someone else again:] “Behold, I come quickly [or suddenly]. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. [The scripture is very clear that one person is Jehovah who spoke through his prophet Isaiah, and of whom Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 40:10; 62:11). It is the same “God/Deity/Godhead) who is spoken of as one person in Acts 17 who judges by means of the one whom He ordained, the Lord Jesus (Acts 17:31). Each man will get his praise from the God of Jesus, and this one person who is the God/Diety/Godhead of Jesus is identified in the following scriptures: Psalm 96:13; Psalm 98:9; Isaiah 40:10,11; 61:1; Acts 17:23,24,29-31; Romans 2:16; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy 4:1.]
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Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” [This identifies the speaker, not as Jesus, but as the one who sits on the throne, he who is, was and is to come — see related studies at Alpha and Omega Links.
Revelation 22:14 [Evidently the angel is then quoted as saying:] “Blessed are those [the heathen who are judged during the millennial rule of Jesus and the church] who do his [God’s] commandments [revealed in the books that are opened to them during that judgment day — Revelation 20:12], that they [the sheep of the age to come] may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” [those in the judgment day who prove themselves to be the goats of that age — Matthew 25:31-46]
Revelation 22:16 [Now the angel quotes Jesus:] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root [Jesus becomes the root of David in the regeneration of David in the age to come] and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star.”
Revelation 22:17 [This is probably the angel speaking, although it could still be Jesus:] “The Spirit and the bride say [in that age to come], ‘Come!’ He who hears, let him say, ‘Come!’ He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.”
Revelation 22:18 [This is probably Jesus who testifies (verse 20) being quoted] “I testify to every man who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19 If anyone [in that age to come] takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God [He who is, was and is to come, he who comes to judge the world through Jesus — Acts 17:31] take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.”
Revelation 22:20 [John writes] He [Jesus] who testifies these things says, “Yes, I come quickly [or suddenly].” [John responds:] Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. — World English Bible translation, with quotation marks slightly adjusted from that used in the World English.
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Regarding the judgment day, see the study:
Mankind’s Course to the Day of Judgment
Of course, if Jesus had stated that he is that Alpha and Omega, etc., it still would not mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scriptures that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of Israel. Jesus would be designating himself as unique in some quality as given to him from his God, Jehovah, similar to the way that he spoke of himself as the first and the last who was dead. — Micah 5:4.
One has sent us some objections to the above. CLICK HERE to see our response.
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https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/rev-2213-obj/
Revelation 22:13 – Objections
Posted on September 30, 2008 | 3 Comments
Some objections have been posted related our presentation of Revelation 22:13 on the following blogsite:
http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2008/09/bible-basics-trinity-part-2-redux.html
MMcelhaney does not actual address the arguments presented, but instead seems to present material designed to distract from the studies.
MMcelhaney states:
I would love to see what version of the Bible and what printing the author used.
I showed in the study the translation used: “World English Bible translation, with quotation marks slightly adjusted from that used in the World English.”
I did not use any print edition, but I used that which is online at studylight.org and bible.crosswalk.com. Information on this translation may be found at:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Information/WorldEnglishBible.html
The World English translators, being trinitarian, and believing that Alpha and Omega is Jesus, would supply quotation marks to support that belief. Of course, the earlier Greek had no punctuation, quotation marks, etc., so whatever is supplied along this line is so supplied by the discretion of the translators.
MMcelhaney continues:
Every King James Version and any Bible that has Christ’s words in red letters have these verses in red. Why? Traditionally this has been interpreted to be Jesus’ words.
This appears to an appeal to man’s traditions rather than actually addressing the scriptures themselves. The fact that any publisher of the Bible decides to put words in red so as to attribute those words to Jesus does not offer any proof that those words were in fact spoken by Jesus. Add to this that most publishers of Bibles are trinitarian, and thus believe that Jesus claimed to be the Alpha and Omega. In effect, this kind of argument is circular, stating that we believe that these are words of Jesus, and therefore since we believe that these are words of Jesus, then we offer our belief that these are words of Jesus as proof that they are the words of Jesus.
MMcelhaney quotes some unnoted edition the NIV, that has words the publisher thought to be that of Jesus in red, evidently as proof that these words are indeed that of Jesus. Again, this kind of reasoning is also circular. In other words, it is stating that because a trinitarian publisher has put the words in red because of his belief that these are the words of Jesus, then this is proof that these are the words of Jesus. Quoting the NIV does not at all address the arguments presented by us in the studies:
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https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-01/
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/ao-2/
https://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-03/
MMcelhaney states:
Why assume that the angel is quoting someone else.
Although I am not sure what the purpose of this statement; I gave the reasons for this in the studies, and this is stated in Revelation 1:1. There is no reason to assume otherwise. John refers to the angels who spoke to him and showed him these things. — Revelation 1:1; 17:7; 22:6,8.
From the fourth chapter of Revelation to the end of the book, the one “who sits on the throne” is not the Lamb, who depicts Jesus, for the Lamb approaches the one who sits on the throne in order to take the scroll from the one sitting on the throne. (Revelation 5:6,7) This one “who sits on the throne” is one that Jesus addressed earlier as “my God.” (Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12) The one who sits on the throne is Yahweh God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who sent Jesus, the God and Father of Jesus. — Exodus 3:15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
MMcelhaney continues:
He nor any angel or man other than Jesus Christ is qualified to say most if not all of the verses I maintain is Jesus talking not the Angel.
As stated, this appears to be presenting a thought that I never presented, as though I had said that all the words of Revelation 22 were that of the angel, and not of Jesus nor of the God and Father of Jesus. If so, this is not what I said. It is probable, however, that the angel was delivering the words of Jesus and the God of Jesus in various parts of Revelation 22, as in many other places in the book of Revelation.
MMcelhaney then states:
No man has seen the Father at any time. This has to include John himself so it wasn’t the Father talking to John.
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With this I agree. No one — no one of the race dying in Adam — has seen the God and Father of Jesus, the only true God who sent Jesus. (John 1:18) The only man who had seen the only true God was he who descended from heaven. (John 3:13) John was seeing things by means of God’s holy spirit, that is in visions, and these visions were being delivered to John by the angels of Jehovah. John was not actually seeing the only Most High sitting on the throne, but rather he was seeing the depiction of such in a visionary way, by means of the spirit. (Revelation 1:10; 4:2) We are not to think that depictions of physical things (throne, crowns, rainbow, lightning, thunder, lamps of fire, etc.) as described in the book of Revelation, actually exist in the heavenly spirit world where God dwells. When it speaks of the Lamb, we are not to think that there is literally a physical lamb in heaven; it is not speaking of a literal lamb, but it is speaking figuratively, as a description of Jesus, who offered himself to God for our sins. Thus what John was seeing was pictorial scenes that figuratively depict the reality.
MMcelhaney tell us:
The angel told John in verse 6 that “The Lord” sent the angel. “The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets” is what the verse says. If they are both true. Then Jesus is “The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets”.
This is in reference to Revelation 22:6:
He said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show to his servants the things which must happen soon.”
This expression should be self-explanatory. “He” is the angel that is showing these things to John, as spoken of in Revelation 21:9,15; 22:1. “The Lord” here is a substitute for the holy name (Yahweh/Jehovah) of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This is the one person identified in Hebrews 1:1 as the God of the prophets, who spoke through the prophets.
Revelation 22:16, records Jesus as saying: “I, Jesus, have sent my messenger (angel), to bear witness unto you of these things, for the assemblies. I, am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and the morning Star.” If the angels sent were the angels of Jehovah, how could the angel be referred to by Jesus as “my angel,” if he was actually the angel of Jehovah? Jehovah has given all authority to Jesus (Matthew 28:18), including authority over the angels. (1 Peter 3:22) The authority is given to him by the only true God, Jehovah. Thus, just as Jesus referred to sheep as “my sheep” (John 10:27) and yet he says that it was his “Father, who has given them to me” (John 10:29), and “They were yours, and you have given them to me. ” (John 17:6) Thus, Jesus, having received authority also over the angels of Jehovah, Jesus could refer an angel of Jehovah as “my angel.” If Bob works for D. E. Company, and D. E. Company assigns an office to Bob, that office is called “Bob’s office,” and yet the it is also D. E. Company’s office.
God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations. — Exodus 3:15, World English Bible translation
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The God of the spirits of the prophets is the same one person who is the God who spoke through Jesus. (Hebrews 1:1,2) The same God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Moses (Exodus 3:15) also sent Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Jesus is depicted as saying prophetically, “Jehovah … sent me.” (Isaiah 61:1, Green’s Literal) There is nothing in this to indicate that Jehovah (who sent Jesus) is Jesus (who was sent by Jehovah). The whole Revelation comes from the God and Father of Jesus; the God and Father of Jesus gives the revelation to Jesus; Jesus gives the revelation the angels of Jehovah, the angels delivered the revelation to John, who in turn was to deliver the revelation to the servants of God.
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John. — Revelation 1:1, World English.
What we do not find in Revelation or any where else in the entire Bible is the idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person.